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  #21  
Old 03-29-2007, 08:25 PM
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Greg,
In my opinion, my bass got a lot better sounding after luthier Bill Merchant, got his hands on it. He moved the bridge a bite, he moved the sound post forward (towards the neck) approximately 1/2 inch. The bass came alive. This stuff is so subjective but my bass definatly sounded better than the way it came from the Upton Shop. I think your bass might benefit from having Bob do his thing too.
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  #22  
Old 04-01-2007, 12:18 AM
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I don't wanna come off the wrong way, but I need to ask this question for my own satisfaction. If Upton has these basses built in a factory in Romania and all they do is varnish, add fingerboard, bridge, soundpost, end-pin, and set-up. What makes these basses so different than any other factory bass (hybrid or carved) in the same price range set-up by the luthier of your choice.

I'd like to know because I'm sort of considering a Professor bass or saving a bit more scratch and getting a NS LaScala Hybrid or carved if possible.
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  #23  
Old 04-01-2007, 08:36 AM
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Lightbulb What makes these basses so different??

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Originally Posted by Michael Case View Post
I don't wanna come off the wrong way, but I need to ask this question for my own satisfaction. If Upton has these basses built in a factory in Romania and all they do is varnish, add fingerboard, bridge, soundpost, end-pin, and set-up. What makes these basses so different than any other factory bass (hybrid or carved) in the same price range set-up by the luthier of your choice.

I'd like to know because I'm sort of considering a Professor bass or saving a bit more scratch and getting a NS LaScala Hybrid or carved if possible.
"What makes these basses so different"?.. 'Nothing' really! These Basses I believe come from the Gliga workshop. Eroy used to work for JR Music who makes and sells the Calin Wultur line of string instruments. After moving to Upton, he brought his contacts with him from what I understand. JR offers this same Bass in both Hybrid and Plywood with two 'finish' choices. One is lacquer from Gliga and the other is Varnish from Wultur which is an upgrade.

I bought 6 Basses from JR and sold most of them already. I just ordered a basic ply and a hybrid upgraded. I am the only shop near Philly so I have to have Basses in all ranges. Having just high end doesn't get the job done if you are going to service the area with Basses for sale.

Not to advertise above but pointing out my 'first hand' experience is more believable than just theory. The NS Basses from AES (Arnold and Wil) are completely different. These are from Basses made in good shop Germany with the Necks shipped separate. Arnold's shop sets and fits the neck for proper angle and neck stand as well as carves the heel and neck stop to order. Upton doesn't put the neck in as you can see from the link above on Upton.

What would I prefer if asked? Well, Upton has good to great lengths to try and corner this market flooding TalkBass with Ads and even threads and postings to back up their claims. I call it the TalkUpton website because I had trouble over there trying to discuss anything else without moderator interference to protect their 'income' from Upton. SO.. I would go with the JR for the lower price point or a Shen and then the New Standard Basses for the 'elite' type plywood, hybrid or even fully carved. I see no difference in a fullly carved Cleveland or La Scala model and lets say a Wilfer or Stoll Bass Grade or quality wise. The difference is that you get one of the top Restoration shops in the country doing the same neck set work as any member of the NY Philarmonic, Met Opera orch, NYC Ballet Orch, National Symphony, Boston Sym, etc as I have seen many old classic Basses in Arnolds shop getting work done. It's nice to know the 'elite' goes there as well as the beginner and intermediate players including all styles of playing. This is not something you will find at Upton otherwise it would be all over his website in his repair section as he does not get this clientele on a regular basis from what I have heard.

Choices are then Shen or JR in the 2k range and NS in the 4k and up. Deal with the best shop you can find. How can you tell which is the best shop? Ask the Bass section in your local Symphony who they trust their English, Italian and French Orchestra Basses with the most if price was no object.

An Upton Bass is a Gliga Bass without the Varnish, Fingerboard and with LaFaro copy FF holes which in my opinion is NOT a Prescott Bass. The name Hawkes and Professor are 'borrowed' from the English firm that contracted Basses mainly in Germany called 'Hawkes Panormo' in 3 grades being the Concert, Professor and Hawkes. The Hawkes is reported to be made in England but this is not 100% proven. Also, Basses were made in France under the name 'Riviere and Hawkes' which mainly look like a French Jacquet Bass. I was offered a Bass for sale once that looked to be a 'Paul Claudot Bass' but passed on it. Later it was sold and opened up only to discover it had and inscription inside the table marked 'Riviere and Hawkes'. Look at my Links just above and see how these two could be easily confused.

The higher shouldered JR Basses from Gliga are called a Panormo model as that's exactly what they copied to make the Hawkes over 100 years ago in England. I like original names and if you are going to copy something at least give credit where it's due. The Professor model was a lower grade than the Hawkes model made about 100 years ago. Upton is now reversing these two putting the Professor name in 'lights' as if it's some improvement.
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  #24  
Old 04-01-2007, 10:27 AM
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I already have a Czech factory bass (hybrid Strunal). I've had the fingerboard, bridge, tailgut, replaced at Gage. So basically I have a bass similar to an Upton? I love the sound of my bass and don't feel a real need to make a sideways move. I think I'm going to take a trip to Gage, 30 minutes by subway instead of 2 or more hours to Connecticut, during the week (SPRING BREAK!) and look at some basses in the $5,000 range. Then I'm going to see if Arnold has a NS in stock that I can check out and take a drive to his place.
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  #25  
Old 04-01-2007, 11:43 AM
Greg Clinkingbeard Greg Clinkingbeard is offline
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Ken,
I completely understand your comments and can't really argue the validity of any of them. However, a couple of things come to mind.
Finishes: If the basses come with either a lacquer or varnish (upgrade) finish, what is the price difference. The Uptons come with an oil varnish tinted to the customer's preference. This is their standard finish.
Comparing them to a NS is a fair comparison, but there is a significant price difference. Several top bassists in town, including a member of the KC Symphony, have played my bass and commented on the fine setup. None have mentioned any problem with the neck set. My teacher told me he had never seen as nice a bass for so little money. I'm not disputing the potential benefit of Arnolds methods; merely the practical benefits in terms of value. A LaScala is a beautiful bass, but twice the price of my Upton and certainly out of my price range.
FF's and Hype: I agree with you on this. Personally, I don't care at all how some designer came up with my FF's. Give me a classic design that fits the bass and don't make a big deal about it.
I do agree that Upton occasionally crosses the line on TB. They are trying to build a business and sell product. Were I in their position, I would like to think I'd lower the hype, but I can't say for sure.
Sizzle helps to sell the steak.
Due to the fact that I live in Kansas, much of what you are saying is theoretical anyway. There aren't any Shen, Wultur or NS basses within hundreds of miles of me. KC Strings offers a Chinese line that frankly doesn't compare. Another shop offers Eastmans on a special order basis carrying no stock. Then there are the guys like Branstetter who may have a bass or two on occasion. In my market, the supply is limited. Had I purchased a Gigla bass from JR for instance, by the time I paid shipping, and a full set up, the bass would have been much more than $2000.
The Upton came to me with a great set up, oil varnish in the color of my choosing for $2600. Even at the current price of $2900, I think they are a fair value given the level of set up offered. For me it was a good choice. If I lived in a larger city with more choices, I may have made a different choice.
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  #26  
Old 04-01-2007, 11:51 AM
Greg Clinkingbeard Greg Clinkingbeard is offline
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One more thing. Calling an Upton a Hawkes, Panormo or whatever has no significance with me. It's like the guy in Phoenix calling his bass 'Wan Bernadel' lol. They could have called my bass 'Design #1' for all I care.

But again, names do affect the marketability of products. Remember the Edsel?
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  #27  
Old 04-01-2007, 11:53 AM
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Exclamation availability...

Here is the dealer list for JR; http://www.jrmusicsupply.com/stores.htm

I can see how availability can make the difference as well as free shipping offered but I just want to point out what is and what isn't and give some other options.

Of course their Basses have merits in their class. They are just not the only game in town, that's all.
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  #28  
Old 04-01-2007, 12:39 PM
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I was asking if an Upton bass would be a reasonable upgrade for someone with a factory bass that has all the perks of an Upton (new fingerboard, bridge, end pin)? Or should I set my sites on something a little higher up the food chain (NS or older European bass in the same price range)?

I have seen so many Romanian basses with the same design as the Upton's. My school (City College of New York) recently purchased a 12 year old Romanian bass, with a very dark and antiqued finish for $10,000 my teacher went to Gage's and picked it out, needless to say it sounds fantastic. I know a player who has a 5 year old solid bass, also Romanian, very similar to the Upton that he paid about the same price they want for the professor. Personally I think the bass my school purchased WOULD be a reasonable upgrade soundwise, but the other Romanian I mentioned isn't that impressive. It just gets me thinking.

I'm very happy with my bass at the moment, but I know that an upgrade will serve me well in the future. I'm curious about Upton because of the price.
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  #29  
Old 04-01-2007, 05:31 PM
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Cool Upgrade...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Case View Post
I was asking if an Upton bass would be a reasonable upgrade for someone with a factory bass that has all the perks of an Upton (new fingerboard, bridge, end pin)? Or should I set my sites on something a little higher up the food chain (NS or older European bass in the same price range)?

I have seen so many Romanian basses with the same design as the Upton's. My school (City College of New York) recently purchased a 12 year old Romanian bass, with a very dark and antiqued finish for $10,000 my teacher went to Gage's and picked it out, needless to say it sounds fantastic. I know a player who has a 5 year old solid bass, also Romanian, very similar to the Upton that he paid about the same price they want for the professor. Personally I think the bass my school purchased WOULD be a reasonable upgrade sound wise, but the other Romanian I mentioned isn't that impressive. It just gets me thinking.

I'm very happy with my bass at the moment, but I know that an upgrade will serve me well in the future. I'm curious about Upton because of the price.
An upgrade from your Factory Bass should NOT be another Factory Bass which is what an Upton is actually. They don't make the Bass. Also, I am not sure their so called Oil Varnish is any better than what they could get directly from Romania. Jeff Bollbach finished his Pallota Lion with oil Varnish using about 17 thin coats sun-dried between coats. Now that is better than a factory Varnish BUT the cost is greater than what Upton paid for their Bass in the white from Romania. I Highly doubt they put a tenth of the work into varnishing a plywood Bass. Also, WHO is doing this Varnish work? A Pro maker or a teenager from the skateboard park? Jeff's Bass was made for the ISB competition. Would Upton enter their 'hand oil varnished' 'Hawkes' (lol) in an ISB competition for the Judges to view their work for the world. I'm sorry but every time I hear the name Hawkes and Upton I have to take a deep breath because a Hawks Bass is actually a Hawkes Panormo copy supplied to Boosey & Hawkes or Hawkes & Son in London c.1880 - c1925 or so. The earlier dates yielding Riviere-Hawkes models made in Mirecourt France and the latter from Germany or a few maybe from London or finished in London.

The first thing a player does when testing out a Bass is playing over the shoulders to get up to thumb position. The Dragonetti (a standard piece) requires playing harmonics way past the fingerboard on all strings but the E. The Hawkes shape is not one I would buy for this kind of work. Why make a modern Bass or maybe promote one that has a shape that has caused so many Basses to be cut-down in order to play the upper registers?

Anyway, as you can see I am not much of a fan of Uptons in any shape or form, sorry. Some of it is personal from how I was 'muted' over on TalkBass by the mods when I got into discussions and even had a post deleted by them because it pointed the finger 'in gest' mind you at their tactics to get attention. Even if their Bass was the better of the two from the JR version, I would not do business with them. That's my personal opinion.

Now, back to your upgrade question again. Tell us your budget with or without trade and you will get some suggestions. If you don't know Paul Biase in NYC, then PM me for his info. He IS the top shop in NY for high grade Basses and has a few mid and lower cost Basses as well. I know him for 35 years and would be dealing with him if I were still living in the city. As a matter of fact, he is restoring my Mystery Bass besides us working together on some other sales or Basses, Bows and even Violins. From a Juzek Bass to a Strad Violin, this is all common ground for Biase. If you like, feel free to show some pics of your current Bass in the designated Forum.
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  #30  
Old 04-01-2007, 05:59 PM
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My budget right now is in the $5,000 area, it could go a bit higher if the right bass comes along. As for a trade I was hoping to keep my old bass as a back-up to whatever new bass I purchased. I see that ideal has two Wilfer # 10's for about that and I know Gage has a few basses in that range. I'd like to see what Basie has to offer as well.
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  #31  
Old 04-01-2007, 10:54 PM
Greg Clinkingbeard Greg Clinkingbeard is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Jeff Bollbach finished his Pallota Lion with oil Varnish using about 17 thin coats sun-dried between coats. Now that is better than a factory Varnish BUT the cost is greater than what Upton paid for their Bass in the white from Romania. I Highly doubt they put a tenth of the work into varnishing a plywood Bass. Jeff's Bass was made for the ISB competition. Would Upton enter their 'hand oil varnished' 'Hawkes' (lol) in an ISB competition for the Judges to view their work for the world.
Jeff's bass is considerably nicer than 99.999999 % of the basses out there. To compare the varnish on a $2900 instrument is just inane. Would they enter a $2900 bass for the ISB to judge???? Of course not.

There are a lot of choices available to anyone considering a bass. You have a personal bias against Upton, and I know you aren't alone, but they do have many satisfied customers.

Don't worry about me turning this into TB. I have always said that I have been happy with my bass and think Upton merits consideration in the price range. If I had twice the money, I would probably be playing a NS, BTW. I know exactly what you are talking about over on TB and I partially agree, but running down the competition isn't becoming. The Ken Smith I've come to know and respect is bigger than that. There's plenty to go around.
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  #32  
Old 04-01-2007, 11:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Clinkingbeard View Post
Jeff's bass is considerably nicer than 99.999999 % of the basses out there. To compare the varnish on a $2900 instrument is just inane. Would they enter a $2900 bass for the ISB to judge???? Of course not.

There are a lot of choices available to anyone considering a bass. You have a personal bias against Upton, and I know you aren't alone, but they do have many satisfied customers.

Don't worry about me turning this into TB. I have always said that I have been happy with my bass and think Upton merits consideration in the price range. If I had twice the money, I would probably be playing a NS, BTW. I know exactly what you are talking about over on TB and I partially agree, but running down the competition isn't becoming. The Ken Smith I've come to know and respect is bigger than that. There's plenty to go around.
Not really trying to run them down as you put it unless they have been placed a bit too high for the claims they make as well as the other boasters echoing their claims. This being the Varnish issue for one. Yes Jeff's is one of the best Varnish jobs you can get BUT why does Upton brag about doing it themselves? Are they better than a real Bass maker in the Gliga shop that Varnishes for a living day in and day out? I will be getting two Basses from JR soon that has both the Gliga Varnish and the Wultur upgrade they offer on the Gliga supplied Plys and Hybrids. Then I will know better what Romania has to offer. The 6 Basses I got before were all nice in the Varnish department but Spirit and not Oil and as you mention a $2900 Bass 'retail' why would they ever bother varnishing it themselves unless the shop finish was just not good at all? What level of finish professionally actually goes on that Bass from Upton?

The Upton line has their merits and their place in the market. That is obvious but to see so much praise by some first time Bass buyers should be taken for face value. If we start to see a bunch of French, English and Italian Basses for sale on Ebay from the Philly Orch, NY Phil etc. and the Bass sections filling up with Upton 'Hawkes' Plywoods and Hybrids, THEN and only then will these boasting claims have any real merit earned to get my attention.

Until then, they are no more than another Shop Brand Bass with some overly promoted features that easily join the ranks of more modestly promoted brands and products offered by Shen, JR, New Standard and a few others. Hey, let's not forget that a Kay Bass in decent condition with the Neck moved out will be a good buy as well, ok?

One thing that used to bother me personally over on TB was all this excitement and bragging about these great plywood and Hybrid Basses with Upton included in the mix. I rarely got a fraction of the excitement introducing a Dodd, Gilkes, Prescott or other great REAL handmade classics than what we saw when the new Home Depot Hybrid hit the store shelves.
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  #33  
Old 04-02-2007, 12:24 AM
Greg Clinkingbeard Greg Clinkingbeard is offline
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Fair enough. We pretty much agree.
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Old 04-03-2007, 04:11 PM
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I would like to direct this post at Ken mostly.

I want to preface my remarks by saying that I have no stake in Upton other than I own one. I have the utmost respect for you Ken and your electric basses. Your knowledge of DB is the reason why I come to your forum.

I guess the original purpose of the post was to find out about other peoples opinion of these instruments. No one ever said that these are rarified instruments or that they are better than anything else available. In fact, I am a recent convert to DB as you know. I went out in search of a student instrument to learn on. I didn't want to be one of those jerks-offs that can bearly play and buys a Ken Smith top-of-the-line bass. Or a guy that buys a 200-year-old carved bass and doesn't know where the first position is. Other players would shake their heads and say "how about learn to play first". Fair comment.

Many of us on this forum are musicians and business people too. As an entrepreneur, you know that making a great product is only one part of the equation. Marketing, creating brand awareness, creating demand based on the power of the brand is just as big, if not bigger, part of being successful with bringing a product to market. You seem to be resentful that Gary (Upton) has done such a good job with that part of his business. I think he should be applauded, strictly from a capitalistic point of view... great execution on that part of the program.

As far as TB goes, we are all painfully aware of the shortcomings of that forum and it does not suit my purpose to turn this into a TB bash session. Hey we are on Ken Smith's Forum now, aren't we? Enough said.

None of this really has to do with the quality of the bass of coarse. I guess what I wanna say is that this instrument represents a really good choice for a player that wants a quality instrument at an introductory price. I have come to that opinion only after my bass teacher, Mike Richmond, said "wow, this is a great bass, What did this cost? Jeff, you did well." I guess the point is he validated my choice. Before that, I had no basis on which to judge. Who cares and why is it that important that the bass came from Gliga, Romania? I personally don't care where it came from.
If others think another manufacturer has another valid product at the same price point, discuss that option.

What makes Uptons special? I guess they occupy a place in the bass food chain (not exclusively) where a young or new player can get a playable instument that sounds very good for little money. The special part is that there are only a few other options out there as has been pointed out by the posts on this thread. In the same breath, all the bass builders on that short list would also be considered special by that yard stick.

Any teacher would be pleased to see an Upton, Shen or Wulter or (fill in the other names) in their students hands as opposed to a junk bass that is sold on Ebay for $495.

As far as marketing ability and execution, Upton is special. No other DB builder (assembler, whatever) really has achieved the visibility Upton has (to my knowledge). If you don't care for them on that basis, I'm not sure it has anything to do with the intent of the question I originally posted.
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Old 04-03-2007, 04:20 PM
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Let me interject by saying this. I think you're responding to a lot of what Ken was saying in reply to my question asking if an Upton would be a reasonable upgrade to my Czech factory bass.
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  #36  
Old 04-03-2007, 05:20 PM
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Lightbulb s far as marketing ability and execution, Upton is special?

Jeff, referring to the end of your Post let me say a few things here.

1) Where would Upton be if there was no TalkBass?

2) Did you know he made a deal for the upper banner on TB and EVERY DB Forum of TB and TB will not even discuss sharing it?

3) Did you know he also bought for 2 or more years all the extra bandwidth on the Upper Side Banner on Every DB Forum as well and TB would Not sell anyone else anymore ad space because Upton made a deal that no one else can advertise there? BTW, This year, Upton is no longer paying for that space but too many people are bitter about the TB/Upton monopoly and will not advertise there anymore.

4) Did you know I tried to buy Banner Space on TB for my Bows and was refused because Upton owned ALL the bandwidth?

5) Did you know that Mods carefully watched what I or others in the Business said about Upton and warned, edited or deleted Posts that looked unfavorable to Upton or even closed Threads that got heated?

6) Did you know that TB on Uptons behalf tried to control a specific image of them in order to secure their advertising monies from Upton?

7) Did you know that my leaving TB was a direct result from a Mod deleting my Post questioning a 'Shill' (planted endorsee) posting about their stripped down overpriced Chinese Bows?

8) Did you know that both Upton and myself buys Bows from the same shop but with the exception of my design and we/KSB only takes the highest grade sticks NOT stripped down?

9) Did you know Upton posted on threads about my Bows on TB to get attention drawn to their own products?

I have nothing personal against Upton Products at all, period.

This Forum exists mainly because TB made me sick from their actions and I still have a lot of friends and customers that want to Talk real Bass so here we are, no Bull, just Bass.... Commercial Free as well!
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Old 04-03-2007, 05:31 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
I still have a lot of friends and customers that want to Talk real Bass so here we are, no Bull, just Bass.... Commercial Free as well!
Touche Ken! And you know a lot about the bass and always willing to share some great tidbits and anticdotes.

One other thing, it's a fine line between preditory and crafty business practice. Many applaud Bill Gates as the businessman of the century. Certainly, you can't argue with what he has accomplished. His competitors call him ruthless and preditory. Is all fair in love & in war (business too)? Also, in a free market, doesn't the "Darwinesk nature" of natural selection make those that are best adapted to competing in business the ones that survive? I'm not defending Upton. I am simply making the point that the challenge is to be the best at marketing (provided you have a good product).
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Old 04-03-2007, 06:01 PM
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The problem is the marketing is superior to the product. And it's gotten to the point at TBDB where a person can't ask about or give an opinion about a bass with out Upton getting defensive. There have been threads in the basses section over there where the Upton people didn't even answer specific questions asked by an original poster. When I challenged this it turned into a big flame war. The days of getting good advice about purchasing an instrument at TBDB are over, unless you are ONLY interested in an Upton bass.
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Old 04-03-2007, 06:11 PM
Greg Clinkingbeard Greg Clinkingbeard is offline
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Yes,
Gary Upton made a sweet deal over on TB and got his name plastered all over there. As a businessman trying to sell his product he has done a tremendous job. If the network airing the Super Bowl made an exclusive deal to air ads only by Ford and froze GM out, we'd be applauding Ford for making such a deal.
I certainly wouldn't fault the network. However, an internet forum such as TB has an obligation to ensure to its members that it is completely fair to all concerned so that there is a free exchange of ideas and information.
I would think the beef really is with TB in not keeping the Forum open and free. Yes, they show favoritism, although NS and Wan Bernadel basses have ad space. A certain distinction here is that the other advertisers don't openly discuss their products on the forum.

All this said, this discussion is really about how a particular dealer conducts their business. FWIW, they have always treated me fairly and I have a nice bass. That's what it all comes down to. Everything else, to me, is secondary.

Let's keep this place open and free where we can all agree to disagree. Time for a beer.
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Old 04-03-2007, 06:17 PM
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Michael Case Michael Case is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Clinkingbeard View Post

Time for a beer.

Like my dad always says "it's 5:00 somewhere!"

I feel you, personally the Upton basses aren't what I need at this point. It's pretty wild though I live minutes away from David Gage, Paul Basie, Ideal Music, and I can spit and find a good bass for sale on the block I live on, but the Upton is so aggressive in getting their name out I almost forget my options. At this stage in the game Upton is not an option for me.
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