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Old 02-17-2011, 06:11 AM
Brian Gencarelli's Avatar
Brian Gencarelli Brian Gencarelli is offline
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Default Fixes to reduce string tension.

Good Morning,

Recently I have been reading a lot in various sources about reducing string tension on a bass. My instrument has a 43" string length and the overall tension on the strings is a lot higher than a lot of other basses I have been playing lately.

I know that switching strings could have an impact, but I have Pirastro Permanents on right now. I really like the way they are sounding on my instrument, so I would like some other suggestions.

What would be the order of operations to address this issue if you were hired to do this? (tailpiece, string height, etc...)

Any answers would be greatly appreciated.

Thanks!
Brian
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Old 02-17-2011, 08:20 AM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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Hey, Brian. Permanents are about the tightest-playing string out there, other than "stark" or heavy gauges. I think you should consider a softer string, especially because of the mensur of your bass. Recently, a client of mine asked me to set his tailpiece all the way down on the saddle, hoping to increase his perceived tension. I was skeptical, but gave it a shot. He was really happy with the change, so maybe you could try moving yours toward the bridge for the opposite result. You could also reduce the breakover angle at the bridge with a higher saddle. And sometimes a looser soundpost or different position can help a bit. How is the fingerboard camber? Often, excessive camber is the cause of a tight feeling.

Good luck, and I hope others will chime in with their remedies.
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Old 02-17-2011, 10:47 AM
Eric Hochberg Eric Hochberg is offline
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I tried everything Arnold suggests and the only significant change on my bass came with a new fingerboard with little scoop (camber?). I've got a plain gut G and D on there now with Spiro Weichs, and the bass seems to really like those, pretty loose feeling now.
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Last edited by Eric Hochberg; 02-17-2011 at 10:57 AM.
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Old 02-17-2011, 11:59 AM
Eduardo Barbosa Eduardo Barbosa is offline
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Default nut?

I hope this is relevant,
In my experience the height of the nut dramatically changed the feel of my basses.
I have it as low as I possibly can with no buzzes.
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Old 02-17-2011, 07:47 PM
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Thumbs up yes..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eduardo Barbosa View Post
I hope this is relevant,
In my experience the height of the nut dramatically changed the feel of my basses.
I have it as low as I possibly can with no buzzes.
I re-cut almost every Nut if too high to as low as possible. The danger here is changing string gauges. If using a larger diameter gauge and you need it low and then go to a thinner gauge after lowering the Nut, then you might get buzzes. The fixes depending on the exact problem or degree of it is to either slightly shim the Nut or, shave the fingerboard back from the half position to the Nut or from somewhere in-between.

The music we play is hard enough. Why fight the bass more than you have to?
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Old 02-18-2011, 06:23 AM
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Brian Gencarelli Brian Gencarelli is offline
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Thanks all, for your detailed responses!

@Arnold- Thanks for your ideas. I can easily play with the tailpiece and the post. I was thinking that. I know you have a very fancy high saddle, and I wil probably be up your way in July. I hope to drop by the shop and bring the bass. I might play with the saddle height in the mean time. Also, I will throw a different G string on there to see if it feels better. I just like the way these sound on the bass. I don't believe there is excessive camber on the board, but I will get out my straight edge and turn out the lights.

@Eduardo- The nut is pretty low. I will double check with a couple of business cards, but it should be really close.

@Ken and Eric- I know that my overstand needs to be corrected, that is a fact. I am planning on bringing the bass with me to see Arnold this summer, so maybe he will be able to look it over and come up with a plan. I just need a "band-aid" right now. The bass is not unplayable, but it is harder to play that I would like. I am playing unaccompanied Bach, and a few other things that the tension makes harder to articulate with the left hand.

@All, the bass sounds really good. I just want to optimize it's playability. In the long term, I want to look at a neck reset and shortening the string length. In the short term, I want to try the most effective things I can comfortably do quickly to make it feel better to play. I can handle TP wires, bridge, FB dressing, SP movement, installing a different saddle, etc... and I should have a little time this weekend. (Thanks Presidents!)

I appreciate the suggestions,
Brian
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Old 02-17-2011, 12:01 PM
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Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
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Cool camber..

Excess Camber is the biggest problem with string tension that I see. Pressing down the notes further to reach the fingerboard is no fun than if the board was mostly flat. I prefer a flat board, let the strings pull the neck a little, the camber/board leveled if not as perfect as desired and then raise the bridge height if you need more clearance to the board, not scoop the fingerboard. That also weakens the neck as the ebony laminated to the maple = strength. Shave the ebony and you weaken the neck. Then when you play, the excess vibrations you feel under your fingers makes it feel that much tighter.

Moving the TP up is something I always liked as the TP absorbs more vibration the closer it is to the bridge making it seem softer to play. The raised saddle also helps but now we get into neck thickness, overstand and neck pitch in the block. You can almost go back to zero and re-build the bass from the block to the string to make it the softest as possible. Sometimes trying to fix a bass starting in the middle is difficult as you fight other factors that can't be done without a huge expense.

Strings are the least of my worries on this as I have played with stark 92s on many basses with a stiff straight neck/board with no problem. Then I had Weichs on another two basses with bent necks and big camber. That was like fighting a giant.

Get the neck/board camber fixed or minimized as much as possible and go from there.

Also, I have played 39.5 inches that was tight and 44.5 inches that was loose, same strings. It's not the length or the strings, it's the neck in 99.999% - 110% of the time, in my not so humble opinion!
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Old 02-17-2011, 01:50 PM
Eric Hochberg Eric Hochberg is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
You can almost go back to zero and re-build the bass from the block to the string to make it the softest as possible. Sometimes trying to fix a bass starting in the middle is difficult as you fight other factors that can't be done without a huge expense.
Yes, I went through all the minor tweaks to little avail, finally got the new board and considered a neck reset, but think the expense-bass ratio for that might be overkill on this bass.
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Old 02-21-2011, 03:06 AM
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Thomas Erickson Thomas Erickson is offline
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This is a good thread - better than most discussion I've seen on the subject. But still, I feel obligated to note that there's still (like always) a lot of grey area and overlap on the issues of actual string tension, perceived string tension, string length (fingering/interval lengths), and instrument response ("tightness", "looseness"). Obviously all of these contribute to how easily an instrument plays, but they're radically different issues that may or may not influence one another or even have anything to do with a particular bass and whatever playability issues it might have.

I think we could add to the quality info here by trying to separate some of these different aspects of "playability" and clarify them - or maybe give them their own threads - if for no other reason than to not perpetuate some of the common fallacies that so often seem to involve the issue of "string tension".

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Excess Camber is the biggest problem with string tension that I see. Pressing down the notes further to reach the fingerboard is no fun than if the board was mostly flat. I prefer a flat board, let the strings pull the neck a little, the camber/board leveled if not as perfect as desired and then raise the bridge height if you need more clearance to the board, not scoop the fingerboard.
Overlooking the fact that the shape of the fingerboard has no bearing on string tension, technically speaking, which makes my question a little off-topic for the thread, I'm not quite getting this - are you saying that with a new fingerboard you like to start with no camber (literally flat), and then evaluate it under tension and add minimal camber only as needed to get sufficient clearance - just sort of free-form? Rather than creating a particular "shaped" camber on the board from the start?
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Old 02-21-2011, 03:42 AM
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Cool well..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Thomas Erickson View Post
This is a good thread - better than most discussion I've seen on the subject. But still, I feel obligated to note that there's still (like always) a lot of grey area and overlap on the issues of actual string tension, perceived string tension, string length (fingering/interval lengths), and instrument response ("tightness", "looseness"). Obviously all of these contribute to how easily an instrument plays, but they're radically different issues that may or may not influence one another or even have anything to do with a particular bass and whatever playability issues it might have.

I think we could add to the quality info here by trying to separate some of these different aspects of "playability" and clarify them - or maybe give them their own threads - if for no other reason than to not perpetuate some of the common fallacies that so often seem to involve the issue of "string tension".

Overlooking the fact that the shape of the fingerboard has no bearing on string tension, technically speaking, which makes my question a little off-topic for the thread, I'm not quite getting this - are you saying that with a new fingerboard you like to start with no camber (literally flat), and then evaluate it under tension and add minimal camber only as needed to get sufficient clearance - just sort of free-form? Rather than creating a particular "shaped" camber on the board from the start?
Ok, it's hard to address so many points in a single post but on my comment about starting flat, I prefer that. Double Basses do not have Truss Rods to adjust from string pull so the attempt is to build the Neck with FB as strong and straight as possible. Putting camber/curve into a FB before you know how much the strings will pull the neck and add to the camber is not the best way to go. You cannot put the wood back in the FB after scraping it out. It takes a few minutes to string up a bass. It takes many hours to replace the FB after butchering it unnecessarily. I have seen many basses come out of well known shops that in my opinion needed a new FB AFTER it was worked on. I am very adamant about my set-up work being as perfect as possible.

I do not at all consider this free-form if you are referring to having no method or measurement. In fact, the opposite is the case. Putting a camber into a FB before testing the string pull I would say IS Free-form because the string pull was NOT tested before cutting wood away that can't be put back. So, your perception of my comment was just the opposite in my opinion.

As far as science goes in relation to actual tension, throw that idea out. No one cares what the laboratory measurements are. The care only how the bass feels when you play it, period. If less camber or moving the Tailpiece or whatever makes the bass easier and/or softer to play, then that is less tension on your hand, wrist and tendons.

I once heard that if every person had to learn things on their own, people would die stupid! So, listen to the more experienced people when ever you can. Been there done that is a fact of life after you have been there and done that. From what I have seen, heard and read on line, too many new DB players are suffering from lack of knowledge, at the hands of misinformation and not having the correct knowledge that is already in existence.

With DB's, trial and error is often the way people set-up and adjust playability over time. Every bass is completely different and it takes what it takes to get it to its most favorable playing condition for a particular player.

The IS a great subject and the OP is a VERY experience Bassist, Musician and music educator with more experience than most. I feel great satisfaction when my ideas and experience can help another professional.
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