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  #41  
Old 04-06-2009, 11:14 AM
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Jason Sypher just found this and sent it over. An early Deerfield Prescott. This is rare because it has the Cello FFs he used and I have only seen them on the 4/4 cello model Basses. This is a Busetto with the Cello FFs.. A first for me..



With this info from the Met Museum;

This information may change as the result of ongoing research.
* This database record may be in completed or unedited.

Attributed to Abraham Prescott
Object Name Bass Viol
Date ca. 1820
Geography Deerfield, New Hampshire, United States
Medium Wood
Dimensions Total L. 200 cm (78-3/4 in.); Body L. 120.6 cm (47-7/16 in.); String L. 109.6 cm (43-3/16 in.); Upper bouts 52.7 cm (20-3/4 in.); Center bouts 28 cm (11-1/16 in.); Lower bouts 72.9 cm (28-11/16 in.)
Credit Line Purchase, Rogers Fund, 1980
Accession Number1980.492

Thanks Jason..
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  #42  
Old 04-09-2009, 12:16 AM
Brian Glassman Brian Glassman is offline
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Hey Ken, this relates back to our discussion in posts 20-24 of this thread. I did see a light colored, large busetto w/ cello f's and a Prescott-like scroll, like this bass, at Barrie's once about 5 yrs ago. Perhaps they were the same model, that would make two.

BG
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  #43  
Old 04-09-2009, 01:18 AM
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Originally Posted by Brian Glassman View Post
Hey Ken, this relates back to our discussion in posts 20-24 of this thread. I did see a light colored, large busetto w/ cello f's and a Prescott-like scroll, like this bass, at Barrie's once about 5 yrs ago. Perhaps they were the same model, that would make two.

BG
But, not all sweeping FFs with Busetto corners are Prescott either. The other Yankee makers copied just about every part of Prescott in one way or another. The Scrolls of Prescott are quite consistent from what I have seen with only 2 slight variations. If the Scroll is original to that bass and its not a Prescott Scroll, chances are it's one of the other makers. Just my opinion here.
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  #44  
Old 07-13-2009, 02:52 PM
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Lightbulb from Michael Glynn, copied to here.

This was posted in another thread but thought it would be valuable as well to copy over to this one.

As I've mentioned on that "other" bass site, I believe the rounded lower corners and f-hole designs on that instrument are derived from the viola d'amore family. Another thread here showed a bass by Woodbury and Burditt that also shows some of these more exaggerated viola d'amore type features (for example, compare it to this viola d'amore), but with standard f-holes. This bass makes me wonder if at least part of the inspiration for the rounded lower corners on many early American basses came from true viola d'amore style instruments, rather than simply Mittenwald basses with rounded lower corners. Here is a modern reproduction of a violone made in Nuremberg in 1640 with strong viola d'amore features as another comparison to the Woodbury and Burditt instrument.

Incidentally, while looking up some stuff on Woodbury and Burditt (and it seems their basses may have been actually made by William Conant) I found this interesting notice from the "Fourth Exhibition of the Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association" in 1844, mentioning a musicial instrument competition that included instruments from Woodbury and Burditt, Prescott, Dearborn and others. This notice from their first exhibition in 1837 mentions basses and cellos by Prescott, the Dearborns, J.B. Allen, and Henry Prentiss. It also mentions that, regarding the basses and cellos:
"They have been constructed upon such models of instruments of foreign manufacture, as the makers chanced to meet with; and, where these models have been departed from, the changes have all been made without reference to any other use of the instrument, than as mere accompaniment to the voices in common psalmody."

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  #45  
Old 07-23-2009, 01:15 AM
Brian Glassman Brian Glassman is offline
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Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Incidentally, while looking up some stuff on Woodbury and Burditt (and it seems their basses may have been actually made by William Conant) I found this interesting notice from the "Fourth Exhibition of the Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association" in 1844, mentioning a musicial instrument competition that included instruments from Woodbury and Burditt, Prescott, Dearborn and others. This notice from their first exhibition in 1837 mentions basses and cellos by Prescott, the Dearborns, J.B. Allen, and Henry Prentiss. It also mentions that, regarding the basses and cellos:
"They have been constructed upon such models of instruments of foreign manufacture, as the makers chanced to meet with; and, where these models have been departed from, the changes have all been made without reference to any other use of the instrument, than as mere accompaniment to the voices in common psalmody."

Ken, very interesting reading. THNX!
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  #46  
Old 11-22-2009, 09:18 PM
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Default Bromberg

[quote=Ken Smith;258]The Banjo guy? No, never met him. All I have to offer at the moment is the Batchelder Bass but enjoy talking about it.

Ken,
David Bromberg is probably the formost authority on American Violin makers and probably possesses the largest collection. Back in the 60s he was on many popular albums as a back up player; guitar and sometimes fiddle. He later attended and graduated from the Chicago School of Violin Making. He used to come into my shop fairly often when I was in downtown Chicago. He was traveling all over the world then buying and selling instruments and bows. Last I heard he had opened a violin shop in the east.
Great Thread!
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  #47  
Old 11-23-2009, 01:06 AM
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[quote=Martin Sheridan;16703]
Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
The Banjo guy? No, never met him. All I have to offer at the moment is the Batchelder Bass but enjoy talking about it.

Ken,
David Bromberg is probably the foremost authority on American Violin makers and probably possesses the largest collection. Back in the 60s he was on many popular albums as a back up player; guitar and sometimes fiddle. He later attended and graduated from the Chicago School of Violin Making. He used to come into my shop fairly often when I was in downtown Chicago. He was traveling all over the world then buying and selling instruments and bows. Last I heard he had opened a violin shop in the east.
Great Thread!
But, does this guy have 'anything' at all to do with Basses? I have never heard his name mentioned associated with a single bass, ever.

Most of the American makers that made basses made basses. A few made mainly Violins and some basses. The Wenberg book has about the most published on American makers than all the English and European books combined. Stil, I find some makers missing like the actual Batchelder that made my old bass.

As with any book, if they made mainly basses, they might be left out of books when written as the names are not known about to them.

Boston's mid 19th century Asa and Jay White made both as did the elder August and George Gemunder did in Springfield Mass. before moving to New York.
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  #48  
Old 11-23-2009, 07:36 AM
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Not as far as I know. He was interested in my basses in a general way, but he's really a violin collector.

Thanks for bringing so much information together on the American makers, there's a real hole in the knowledge about bass makers generally.

The VSA Journal had an article on some Germans who made basses in Pennsylvania some years back. The black bass above attributed to Prescott looks very similar to their work.
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  #49  
Old 11-23-2009, 09:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan View Post
Not as far as I know. He was interested in my basses in a general way, but he's really a violin collector.

Thanks for bringing so much information together on the American makers, there's a real hole in the knowledge about bass makers generally.

The VSA Journal had an article on some Germans who made basses in Pennsylvania some years back. The black bass above attributed to Prescott looks very similar to their work.
Well, it is believed that the Prescott design is generally German taken from I believe a Hornsteiner or something similar. There were many Germans and English settlers in New England that made Violin family instruments. Mostly Violins and Basses. I have heard of and seen very few if any Violas or Cellos from this period. Cellos in the way of Church Basses yes but standard measured Violincellos we see hardly any from the 19th century Yankee makers. The Violins are all basically European in design. The Basses however have their own Yankee flair. I must exclude the first generation Gemunder brothers that came over made what they knew from France and maybe Germany. George Gemunder of the 2 Basses I have seen are totally French in design and Varnish as he came over here straight from Vuillaume's shop. His older Brother August however of the 2 Basses I know of his (one of which I own) are closer to a Gagliano if anything. Long body with flatback but shorter FFs that you would see on a Neapolitan bass. I am guessing he may have seen one as an example but made smaller FFs for tone and design preference. This Bass looks so Italian I could re-label it and no one would question the provenance.

It is also believer than Prescott used an only English Viol for his long Scroll/pegbox design. His basses were all originally 3-string from what I have seen and the heads can easily take 5 or even 6 tuners in them.

I guess this is what you get generally when makers partly copy and partly think on their own. The first time I saw the G. Gemunder bass I asked if it was an old Bernardel! The first time I saw the G.Gemunder I thought it was Gagliano school bass. The later made NY Gemunder Basses look mainly German to me, imported from there and finished up over here. Without the Label they are German shop basses for the most part. If they were made here then there was no originality at all in the design as they are perfect models of the German basses from the end of the 19th to the early 20th century.

Well anyway, the more you see, the more you know. Thus is the case as long as what you compare them to are correctly known models/makers as well.
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  #50  
Old 11-23-2009, 12:47 PM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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I have read that Klotz' designs were the basis for Prescott, not Hornsteiner's.
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  #51  
Old 11-23-2009, 03:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
I have read that Klotz' designs were the basis for Prescott, not Hornsteiner's.
Yes, I have read that too but the last time I saw a Klotz bass it was actually an old Hornsteiner to my eye. And, which Klotz? Klotz was a famous family and the founding family of the Mittenwald school. Why not name all old Mittenwald basses Klotz? I don't know which are real Klotz's, Neuners or Hornsteiners. They all look alike to me.

Hey, I would love to see a REAL Confirmed Mathius Klotz Double Bass. The last tine I saw something that looked like a M. Klotz, it had a famous Italian name.
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  #52  
Old 11-23-2009, 08:59 PM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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I'm pretty sure Prescott pre-dated the Hornsteiner shop.
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  #53  
Old 11-24-2009, 12:32 AM
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Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
I'm pretty sure Prescott pre-dated the Hornsteiner shop.
Not really so Maestro. The Hornsteiners date from the early 18th century and the commercial firm of Neuner & Hornsteiner dates from 1750, about 70 years before any recorded Prescott bass. Perhaps here in USA we have only seen the later made basses as the old ones are stuck in the Central European Orchestras and not going anywhere. The Neuner family dates from even a century earlier, the 17th.

Remember that Thread I started called Where are They??

I started that Thread because I knew there were old Mittenwald basses by these families but rarely seen here in USA or on the internet anywhere. They were made but probably scarce in comparision and just not available for sale that we ever see.

Just because a bass is very old, large and has lower rounded corners does not make it a Klotz unless it was made by one of that family.
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  #54  
Old 11-24-2009, 09:24 AM
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Default Klotz

I had read that the Busetto cornered Prescott basses were a copy of a Klotz. The Klotz family continued generation after generation. I think I remember seeing a Klotz violin from the early 20th century. Some think the first Klotz studied in Cremona with Amati.
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  #55  
Old 11-24-2009, 11:01 AM
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Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan View Post
I had read that the Busetto cornered Prescott basses were a copy of a Klotz. The Klotz family continued generation after generation. I think I remember seeing a Klotz violin from the early 20th century. Some think the first Klotz studied in Cremona with Amati.
Yes Martin, think! It is written that he (the first Klotz maker) studied with someone (I will have to go back and find the name) in Italy that came from Fussen I believe. On the word or name 'Busetto' itself, this I find it hard to swallow. In the Elgar book he doesn't call it Busetto corners. He calls it 'lower rounded corners'. It was later I believe that some bass was named after the maker Giovanni Maria del Busetto. Busetto being a town in Italy. From reading about that maker I see no reason to believe he ever made a Double Bass much less that German looking one named after him that is either in Japan or Berlin. That bass has the form of early Mittenwald basses. The Bat wing FFs are Central European as well, not Italian. If that bass looks Italian in workmanship internally then maybe it's because the early Klotz maker Mathias trained in Italy. This is confirmed Klotz instrument here; http://www.myeasybass.com/publications/p_klotz.html

When looking at the work of del Busetto, what little has been found it seems way to early in time to be anything like that big bat winged F hole bass they named after him. Now what we have is confusion. Maybe started by the dealers as far as who made what or trained with whom including Stainer and the term 'Busetto corner'. What a mess!!
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  #56  
Old 11-25-2009, 05:06 PM
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Default Busetto

I have never found any evidence of basses by Busetto either. We don't know how many studied with Amati because they are not mentioned in the census of his household if they didn't live with him, so I don't think anyone really knows where Klotz learned, but they like to make that Italian connection.
By the way, my cousin is married to an Italian, can I claim my basses as Italian? Sounds like a close enough connection to me, and I could raise my prices.
One that I find amusing is Morrelli who was a German who just used that name. Even his stuff brings more than a comparable German maker from the 30s even though everyone in the biz knows he was German. Any other time I'd remember his real name, but right now that would require me to think; it's been a long day and I want a drink before I do anymore thinking.
best,
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  #57  
Old 11-25-2009, 05:35 PM
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Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan View Post
I have never found any evidence of basses by Busetto either. We don't know how many studied with Amati because they are not mentioned in the census of his household if they didn't live with him, so I don't think anyone really knows where Klotz learned, but they like to make that Italian connection.
By the way, my cousin is married to an Italian, can I claim my basses as Italian? Sounds like a close enough connection to me, and I could raise my prices.
One that I find amusing is Morrelli who was a German who just used that name. Even his stuff brings more than a comparable German maker from the 30s even though everyone in the biz knows he was German. Any other time I'd remember his real name, but right now that would require me to think; it's been a long day and I want a drink before I do anymore thinking.
best,
The Morelli basses were made in a German shop or two or three (over the years), imported into USA and THEN labeled Morelli. Some were stamped in Germany during production I suspect by request of the importer. The maker or shop recorded was Karl Hermann.

On Klotz it is known to a degree that M.Klotz the eldest Mittenwald maker trained with Fussen maker Giovanni Railich that had settled in Padua Italy. Klotz is believed to have trained first in Fussen or Vils or maybe even with Stainer and then spent 6 years in Padua before returning to Mittenwald.

The Families of Klotz, Neuner, Hornsteiner and Baader came one after another sometimes working with each other, in competition of each other or independently. Mittenwald for some time was THE world center for Violin production. This is one of the tangled webs we find in this business. Who did what when or where and to who or with whom.

I bet the Germans over there today could easily put this mystery in order much easier then we can but still, many things were just not well recorded.

As far as what Bass or BassES Prescott actually copied, dig up his grave and ask him!

My main point is that it's a bit irresponsible in this business to point every thing 'Bass' from Mittenwald to the Klotz family. They were first but were not alone for long as in the early 18th century, the demand grew as did the makers, families and firms providing instruments.
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  #58  
Old 11-26-2009, 09:47 AM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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I was in Mittenwald several years back, and walking around this most amazingly picturesque Alps town, I came upon a beautiful statue in the center of town. Who, you ask, is portrayed there? Matthias Klotz. Maybe somebody with better internet skills can find & post a picture here. BTW, Ken, I think you are right about Hornsteiner. I believe I was thinking of the more modern, commercial Neuner & Hornsteiner basses.
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  #59  
Old 11-26-2009, 01:29 PM
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Cool Hornsteiner..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
I was in Mittenwald several years back, and walking around this most amazingly picturesque Alps town, I came upon a beautiful statue in the center of town. Who, you ask, is portrayed there? Matthias Klotz. Maybe somebody with better internet skills can find & post a picture here. BTW, Ken, I think you are right about Hornsteiner. I believe I was thinking of the more modern, commercial Neuner & Hornsteiner basses.
Well, like I mentioned in my other Thread Where are they??, these old Mittenwald basses are hard to find. Yes, the commercial ones made for export over the last 100 years or so are not so hard to find but the ones from before 1850 and back a century or so more are mostly still over there I would imagine.
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  #60  
Old 11-26-2009, 02:16 PM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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Here is the statue.

http://www.matthias-klotz.de/img/3-0/3-0-Denkmal200.jpg
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