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  #1  
Old 02-09-2007, 09:07 PM
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Wink My 'Neck' of the 'Woods'!

Hi folks, this new Thread is basically 'Neck Talk' as far as how we do things. Also, we can discuss the differences between various construction types of Necks as well as Fingerboard materials, Graphite Carbon Fiber, Truss Rods etc.

In our Basses we have used 3, 5 and 7 piece laminated Necks and we have also made each of these in several ways and with various materials. Fingerboards on Smith Basses are usually Ebony or Morado but we have used and tried some other woods as well over the years. These also include Indian Rosewood, Bubinga, Ziricote, Maple and Granadilla from what I can remember. For the Neck woods itself we have used both hard and soft maples, curly and non-curly. For Neck laminates we have used Indian Rosewood, Morado, Bubinga, Shedua, Purpleheart and Walnut.

As you can see, I have tried many many combinations and to date have produced over 5,400 handmade Smith Basses. From this kind of quantity and variety, I can easily see what works best for us and what doesn't. Also, I can see what works period or not regardless of the brand or maker.

So, tell us about your "Neck of the Woods" now...

Questions and discussions are welcomed...

Edit: You may find this link helpful in understanding some of the things we do as well as how and why we do them.

Last edited by Ken Smith; 02-12-2007 at 10:04 AM. Reason: link added
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Old 02-18-2007, 08:01 AM
Kraig Gregory Kraig Gregory is offline
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Default Neck of the Woods

Ken,

You stated you know what works best and what just doesn't work. In terms of sound quality, stability, and visual appeal; is there a noticable difference between a 5 and 7 piece neck?

Also most of the time you either see bubinga or purpleheart laminates. Are these woods used for their sound charactaristics or other factors? What has been your experience of using rare woods like shedua, cocobolo, or morado as laminates on a neck?

Maple is the standard as the base of all necks. Just wondering if you have found any exotic woods that work as well or better than maple. Also you don't see a lot of photos of flamed maple necks coming out of your shop, is that on purpose?

Bottom line with everything factored in, if you were to make a neck thru bass what materials would you use and how many pieces would it have to maximize tone and stability.

Thanks for your time.
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Old 02-18-2007, 09:19 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Kraig Gregory View Post
Ken,

You stated you know what works best and what just doesn't work. In terms of sound quality, stability, and visual appeal; is there a noticeable difference between a 5 and 7 piece neck?

Also most of the time you either see bubinga or purpleheart laminates. Are these woods used for their sound characteristics or other factors? What has been your experience of using rare woods like shedua, cocobolo, or morado as laminates on a neck?

Maple is the standard as the base of all necks. Just wondering if you have found any exotic woods that work as well or better than maple. Also you don't see a lot of photos of flamed maple necks coming out of your shop, is that on purpose?

Bottom line with everything factored in, if you were to make a neck thru bass what materials would you use and how many pieces would it have to maximize tone and stability.

Thanks for your time.

Ok, this is a lot to answer in one post so I will do it as a Q and A thing.
-------------------------

Q:is there a noticeable difference between a 5 and 7 piece neck?

A:Yes, to my ear the 7pc nk is slightly brighter and tighter sounding BUT both necks need to be tested using the exact same woods like Maple/Bubinga.
-------------------------

Q:most of the time you either see bubinga or purpleheart laminates. Are these woods used for their sound characteristics or other factors?

A: I would say more for their strength and grain as these woods can be had in long lengths with no defects in them. I have found pin knots in Purpleheart but Bubinga is cleaner to work with and equally stiff.
-------------------------

Q:What has been your experience of using rare woods like shedua, cocobolo, or morado as laminates on a neck?

A:Never used Cocobolo for neck strips but Morado is my all time favorite for strength and tone. Shedua is rare at this this time buy may have a limited comeback.
-------------------------

Q:Just wondering if you have found any exotic woods that work as well or better than maple. Also you don't see a lot of photos of flamed maple necks coming out of your shop, is that on purpose?

A:Maple has been used for instrument necks for over 400 years. It has the best strength-to-weight-to-elasticity of all the woods I have seen. A neck needs to bend a little and if dropped or mis-handles be able to bounce within rather than crack like some more brittle exotic hardwoods. For making necks we buy 4/4, 5/4, 6/4 and 8/4 thick rough lumber for the various necks we use in our 4, 5, 6, and 7-string Basses made as 3, 5 and 7-piece laminates in either Bolt-on or Neck-thru. The Neck-thru gradually tapers from end to end the way we build them so we need some wide stock for some models. Maple is the only Neck grade wood we can get in long clean white lumber in the various thicknesses we use.
-------------------------

Q:Bottom line with everything factored in, if you were to make a neck thru bass what materials would you use and how many pieces would it have to maximize tone and stability.

A:My answer is in the models and woods we use currently. If I thought I could do something better, we would. Years ago we mixed Shedua with Bubinga in the BMT 7pc necks. We ran out of Shedua back then and could not find any so we settled finally on just the Bubinga for that model neck mixed with Maple. Now we have some stock in Shedua that is not figured so I am planning at this time to use it in the necks in place of Bubinga when our current supply runs out. When the Shedua is all gone, we will buy more Bubinga as Shedua is not always available but Bubinga is quite plentiful. This change to Shedua will not take place for a few years as we have 100s of neck billets glued up with Bubinga and still some supply left. When we start making Maple/Shedua Necks, they will sit and acclimate for at least 1-2 years before going into a Bass which is our standard practice with all neck stock.
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Old 02-19-2007, 11:23 AM
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I've been kinda wondering about something as well. I've been contemplating how a bass would perform with a walnut neck and maple stringers. Is that something you've tried before Ken?

I've come to like the tone of walnut, and one of the things I'm contemplating for my next high end bass is one with as much walnut in it as possible. Something like a BSR5EG with walnut core, top, and maybe koa or ash laminates. I was wondering if a walnut neck with the maple stringers would be possible (and desirable) on that bass (I know you don't have any already made so you couldn't put one of these out for quite awhile).

Would this bass be like wearing a ball and chain over your shoulder?
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Old 02-19-2007, 12:05 PM
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Lightbulb Walnut Neck?

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Originally Posted by Bob Faulkner View Post
I've been kinda wondering about something as well. I've been contemplating how a bass would perform with a walnut neck and maple stringers. Is that something you've tried before Ken?

I've come to like the tone of walnut, and one of the things I'm contemplating for my next high end bass is one with as much walnut in it as possible. Something like a BSR5EG with walnut core, top, and maybe koa or ash laminates. I was wondering if a walnut neck with the maple stringers would be possible (and desirable) on that bass (I know you don't have any already made so you couldn't put one of these out for quite awhile).

Would this bass be like wearing a ball and chain over your shoulder?
First, No. I have not made Walnut necks BUT I have seen a few. Also, Walnut has many hidden defects like Pin Knots and is not the best thing for a Neck. Walnut has the density of soft Maple and not Hard Maple that we use. Also, Walnut is on the brittle side and not flexible like Maple under stress so it would be more prone to shock cracks than Maple is.

We take years in the process for Every Smith Neck we make from the Lumber to the finished Bass. We would take no less time with your experiment BUT, we will not warranty the Bass if using Walnut as you describe. If you like the sound of Walnut as you say, make sure the Bass you are comparing it to has the same Fingerboard, Finish, Pickups and Electronics (and body woods, shape and thickness) as a Smith Bass so you don't get caught comparing Apples to Oranges kinda syndrome.

That being said, If I thought Walnut was good for Necks (and we have about 25,000 bf feet of it in stock), then you can bet it would be on the Menu just like the choices for body wood parts are.
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Old 02-19-2007, 02:03 PM
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How about a maple neck with walnut stringers?

If you were picking woods on a 5EG for the best bottom end with good mids and sustain (I'm not that concerned with highs, but don't hate them either), what would be your choices for core, laminates, top/back, neck woods, etc?

Walnut, at least on the basses that I've played which were made with a lot of it tends to have a nice warm, "woody" tone to it. But I've never been able to sit down and compare several identically designed basses with different woods before. It's something I would enjoy, but not something that would be very easy to arrange I fear.

I'll definitely yield to your expertise on what works over time. To date I haven't had to even touch my bass neck as far as set up goes. The neck, while it does change with the seasons, has never moved enough to care about adjusting anything.
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Old 12-14-2008, 06:07 PM
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Default Walnut for Fretless, Maple for Fretted

Hi all,

What about the difference between THE fretted and THE fretless neck wood ?

After 30 years of bass playing I am totally enthusiastic about my tone and feel with Smith basses. My favourite body wood combo is a) mahogany core with maple t&b and b) walnut core with walnut t&b. a) is punchy aggression and b) is warmer growl But only for fretted basses, and as far as I understand there are not so much options to choose a neck wood...;-)

I tried those combos out with fretless Smiths and I found out, that I'm again impressed by the attack and tonal response, but I missed the tonal complexity of an old Tobias fretless I own. So my favourite fretless neck is ... walnut with purpleheart stringers. By the way - I own several Tobias' and the walnut neck is not only good for fretless... but for fretted I would prefer Maple with Laminates...

Ken, did you check walnut for fretless necks ? What is your favourite wood for fretless necks ? Do you think that there is a difference between tonal woods for fretted and fretless basses ?
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Old 12-14-2008, 08:06 PM
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Lightbulb Walnut Neck?

First off, this Thread is about MY Neck of the Woods and not some other brands or ways of building. I will not discuss other brands or build styles here. I do what I do and will tell you what I don't do what I don't. Or, is that why I do do what I don't? English Professors to the rescue?.. lol

On Wood properties and the 'whys' and 'why nots', I will compare Maple and Walnut for you as Neck Wood Candidates.

A Neck must have in my opinion some flexibility and some natural shock absorption for safety as well. Maple is strong and hard as well as flexible to a degree. If dropped, it might absorb the hit and just dent but in weak areas and bad falls, any Neck can be broken. Walnut on the other hand is a quite a bit lighter and less dense. It is also equally not as strong when it comes to absorbing hits or bends. Walnut is more brittle than Maple overall.

I have TONS of Walnut in stock in various thickness that would easily make the specs for Neck Billets. The wood I have was mostly air dried in the building and ranged from 6-10 years old on average. Great acclimation for a musical instruments except for one problem. Maple works better, period.

I am sure that if I made some Walnut Necks they would work but I have seen our Basses from even the 1979 batch with all kinds of dings and hits. Would Walnut take as much punishment? Would Walnut be able to be carved as thin? Can you have such little wood in comparison behind the Truss Rod route in the back center and not loose sleep if it was made strong enough?

I can make a Neck out of Pine if I like but it wouldn't be the best I could do. One of the hardest woods to find is white hard Sugar Maple in big clean pieces and free from defects, stains and knots and in various thicknesses and without distortion in the lateral growth rings. Walnut? Can you see the defects in this dark wood, its needed straight grain? Maybe not. Dark woods and dark finishes can hide a multiple of sins in woodworking and overall quality? Can you hide anything using transparent finished white Sugar Maple? Nope! No where to hide even a pimple in a Maple Neck.

The Maple I use has been in my building for many years with some of it from last century. I prefer to go with what I know and repeat proven results rather than to gamble with YOUR money. If something goes wrong down the road, it becomes MY money that gets affected as well.

We do what we do, bottom line..

For Fretless or any other Neck, the Fingerboard adds the Strength in. That is why we mainly use the highest quality stable aged Ebony for our Fretless Basses. We even use thicker stock to make up for the Fret height, and fretting strength that is missing on a Fretless. This in itself can help save a Neck over time.
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Old 12-15-2008, 05:39 PM
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I won't argue with Ken on necks.. He refused my custom neck request 7.5 years ago when I ordered, but he explained to me in fair detail why he doesn't do custom necks and I accepted that.

To this day I take him for his word.. We rehearse in my basement, which is not temperature controlled other than what seeps down from upstairs, and the temperature changes down there require me to retune all my other basses every time we play. The Smith rarely needs to be retuned, and most of the time when it does it is so little out that the simple change in tension of tuning the E string the 1/4 step it may be off brings the rest back in tune. As we rehease the amps will heat the basement up so we'll see a temperature swing down there of 20 degrees during a session, no need to retune the Smith.. That neck is solid as a rock..
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Old 01-22-2009, 05:57 PM
Richard Hall Richard Hall is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Hi folks, this new Thread is basically 'Neck Talk' as far as how we do things. Also, we can discuss the differences between various construction types of Necks as well as Fingerboard materials, Graphite Carbon Fiber, Truss Rods etc.

In our Basses we have used 3, 5 and 7 piece laminated Necks and we have also made each of these in several ways and with various materials. Fingerboards on Smith Basses are usually Ebony or Morado but we have used and tried some other woods as well over the years. These also include Indian Rosewood, Bubinga, Ziricote, Maple and Granadilla from what I can remember. For the Neck woods itself we have used both hard and soft maples, curly and non-curly. For Neck laminates we have used Indian Rosewood, Morado, Bubinga, Shedua, Purpleheart and Walnut.

As you can see, I have tried many many combinations and to date have produced over 5,400 handmade Smith Basses. From this kind of quantity and variety, I can easily see what works best for us and what doesn't. Also, I can see what works period or not regardless of the brand or maker.

So, tell us about your "Neck of the Woods" now...

Questions and discussions are welcomed...

Edit: You may find this link helpful in understanding some of the things we do as well as how and why we do them.
Hi Ken.

I have a few questions regarding neck stability that I noticed haven't really been touched on in this forum that I was curious about.

I was wondering why you like to use graphite reinforcement for building your necks. I understand the basic premise for using it is to stabilize the neck and minimize dead and hot spots.

Have you considered researching any alternate ways of reducing the stress on the neck? I already know that you aren't for using a scale lengths more or less that 34"; I'm not a fan of that technique either.

And speaking of dead/hot spots, what is your theory as to what causes them? Thanks for sharing your knowledge and wisdom.
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Old 01-22-2009, 06:25 PM
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Lightbulb alternate ways of reducing the stress on the neck?

Quote:
alternate ways of reducing the stress on the neck?
Play a few Smith Basses and tell me if they feel like there is Stress on the Neck, please!

Not all of our Basses have the custom made graphite rods in them. Yet all of our Necks, Graphite or not share the same track record over the years as far as stability and consistency goes.

Also, not all Graphite is created equally and neither are the various methods of installing the Rods. We have 'our' way of making Necks with or without Graphite added but I will not discuss that further.
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Old 11-17-2009, 11:47 PM
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Default Ash or Mahongany

Hello, I was just wondering your thoughts on using Ash for necks? or even Mahogany?
Im seeing Ash used more and more and Mahogany it seems has been used for quite sometime .... anyway would you consider using these woods if requested by a customer?

thanks!
- T
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Old 11-18-2009, 01:29 AM
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Lightbulb no..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Tom Albano View Post
Hello, I was just wondering your thoughts on using Ash for necks? or even Mahogany?
Im seeing Ash used more and more and Mahogany it seems has been used for quite sometime .... anyway would you consider using these woods if requested by a customer?

thanks!
- T
Mahogany is just way too soft for a Bass neck in my opinion. Ash is on the brittle side and is very grainy.

Mahogany is easy to get in clean pieces or Lumber. Ash is much cheaper than Oak in the furniture world and rarely desired over it. Maple in white clean pieces is hard to get and expensive as well. Also, there is much waste in using the white Hard Maple we use.

I am guessing the Mahogany usage is due to economics and ease of manufacturing and Ash is maybe used because it is easier to get clean white pieces and probably cheaper as well all around over Maple.

Cheaper or easier doesn't make it better. It would be nice to have a wood that is cheaper than Maple and easier to use with less waste that gives the same results. Still, I don't think either wood measures up.

Now, imagine that I agree to use something new like you are suggesting. What do you think the time frame for completion would be if I agreed and with using the same methods of curing and acclimation that I've used for almost 3 decades?

Take a few minutes or whatever it takes and study the contents of this link;

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/ft/default.html ..

Click on each picture and read the captions. A picture they say is worth a thousand words. I used only a few for each pic. You can fill in the rest of the words..

Get back to me here when you've read it all and understand better what it is that we do different than most of the bass building world.
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Old 11-18-2009, 07:11 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Mahogany is just way too soft for a Bass neck in my opinion. Ash is on the brittle side and is very grainy.

Mahogany is easy to get in clean pieces or Lumber. Ash is much cheaper than Oak in the furniture world and rarely desired over it. Maple in white clean pieces is hard to get and expensive as well. Also, there is much waste in using the white Hard Maple we use.

I am guessing the Mahogany usage is due to economics and ease of manufacturing and Ash is maybe used because it is easier to get clean white pieces and probably cheaper as well all around over Maple.

Cheaper or easier doesn't make it better. It would be nice to have a wood that is cheaper than Maple and easier to use with less waste that gives the same results. Still, I don't think either wood measures up.

Now, imagine that I agree to use something new like you are suggesting. What do you think the time frame for completion would be if I agreed and with using the same methods of curing and acclimation that I've used for almost 3 decades?

Take a few minutes or whatever it takes and study the contents of this link;

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/ft/default.html ..

Click on each picture and read the captions. A picture they say is worth a thousand words. I used only a few for each pic. You can fill in the rest of the words..

Get back to me here when you've read it all and understand better what it is that we do different than most of the bass building world.
Hello, thanks for the reply. I have gone through these pages, as well I have watched the show done on your shop "Cool stuff being made" (both induce high levels of GAS) ... I understand why you dont use Ash or Mahogany. I also see the amount of care that goes into what you do!

not for comparison ....
I was just thinking about companies like Gibson or even Alembic (mahogany) or MTD (ash) Other respected builders who do... I am NOT comparing a Smith bass to those companies I respect totally what you guys do and know Smith basses are not to be compared. But just the fact that they use those types of woods on there necks, I am assuming to get a different "tonal flavor" as well as for "looks".... I wanted to get your thoughts. Again Thank You.

Looking forward to my next which should be very soon.
-Tom

Last edited by Tom Albano; 11-18-2009 at 07:48 AM.
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Old 02-16-2011, 11:26 AM
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Default Neck Thickness

I own and owned a lot of BTs, BMTs and BSRs and I found that the newer BSR necks feel thicker, beefier than the older BT and BMT necks. What was the reason for this change ? Customer demand ? Construction issue ? Ken's personal feel ?

It's not about pro and con of the neck thickness in common. I feel comfortable with both. I'm only interested in the reason for the change at Smith basses.

I would also like to know when exactly the transition to the beefier necks has started.
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Old 02-16-2011, 12:47 PM
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Lightbulb thickness..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Rainer Bastian View Post
I own and owned a lot of BTs, BMTs and BSRs and I found that the newer BSR necks feel thicker, beefier than the older BT and BMT necks. What was the reason for this change ? Customer demand ? Construction issue ? Ken's personal feel ?

It's not about pro and con of the neck thickness in common. I feel comfortable with both. I'm only interested in the reason for the change at Smith basses.

I would also like to know when exactly the transition to the beefier necks has started.
About 10-15 years ago or so we started making the Fingerboards thicker to have a longer life in fretting and re-fretting as boards get sanded and re-leveled once in awhile. If you start out thinner, the life of the board is way less. Changing the board is a huge job and requires refinish as well. It could easily cost half the price of a new bass for such a huge project.

The rear of the necks are more consistent now as well to ensure that the area under the truss rod entrance and nut is not weak in case of a fall.

Thin necks or overly thick ones can promote bad technique in ones playing. Many people are self taught and may not know the difference but comfort is the goal here. Straining your hand, wrist or fingers for over or undersized necks can promote injury as well over long periods of time.
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