Where's This Bass From?

[Chang Min Lee]

Hi, All. 1st post.

I have this bass out on trial from a reputable shop. The guy I spoke with wasn't sure of the origin. He mentioned French but then said he leaned towards New England because of the way the scroll's carved in towards the center of the spiral. I saw it and immediately thought German. And having tried it out for a week I'd say it plays like a German too.

The bass has a nice mature complex sound. A woody pleasant tone with no tub and projects very well in a big hall (although it lacks a little of the sub-bass boom). The shop guy says it's over 100 years old and the look is consistent. It's in very good shape overall having no open seams or cracks, and is set up well.

I'm thinking about buying it and would appreciate any ideas so I have an idea of what it might be worth. Thanks!

A couple interesting things about this bass: It has a curiously purfled back button like I've never seen - just an extension of the back and not carved to match the heel of the neck. It also has an interesting cam design allowing the E string to go down to a D by flipping a lever. The other strings are also on cams adjusting for the change in tension and keeping them in tune.

Here's a link to more photos:
http://s454.photobucket.com/albums/q.../Bass/?start=0

Thanks again!

[Chang Min Lee]

Sorry the pics are so blurry. No macro setting on my cheap camera.

[Ken Smith]

Interesting looking Bass. My first guess is something German. The questions I need to ask is about the Scroll and Gears. Is that Scroll 100% original to 'that' Bass? Also, are the Gear the original Gears to that Scroll.

Basses from the south of Germany often have Back buttons similar to that. This is the Mittenwald school. On the other hand, we have seen Berlin area makers with nice stuff as well. This is not your typical 'shop bass' in any way. The slanted FFs remind me of the Tirol but that attribution is often thrown around a bit too often in my opinion.

Please confirm the Scroll and Gear questions I asked. Then I will try to take a better guess. I hope Arnold give his two cents. He has seem many more of these than I have. On thing I can say for now, I don't think it's French at all. The slanted FFs are common on the Northen English Basses but that long slender body form is Germanic in every way. Round Back Gamba Basses are not something you see often coming from England. It is very common however in Northern Germany. The south and Tirol are more common with Flatbacks from what I have seen from this period.

Ok, I just realized you said 'New' England, not England. I don't see much of anything there. It's just another interesting Scroll with some extra detail work. It doesn't look 'Yankee' to me at all. I think this guy you know is just 'fishing' for an answer to its origin. Again, this style of Bass is not Yankee either.

[Chang Min Lee]

Thanks so much for your insightful answer, Ken. It was extremely helpful.

I will ask the shop if they know if the scroll and tuners are original. If they don't know I'll have them ask the owner as the bass is on consignment.

Upon looking closer I see that the scroll was grafted onto the neck at some point, with the scoring up the thin part of the pegbox and behind the button. The neck has also been clearly grafted about 1/3 down from the scroll, but the flaming is exactly the same so I'm thinking it might have had a longer string length (currently 42.5")? Looking at the scroll - it has a very similar flame to the back and sides and same color and very similar patina with the same kind of fine cracking patterns in the varnish. With my untrained eye it looks to be original to the bass or at least of a close age. I might guess that the neck might not be original but replaced at some point. It doesn't show any cracking of the varnish anywhere, although the color matches well. Also, there's a different piece of wood at the back of the neck block I'm guessing to increase the overstand. But I really don't have any experience to make a good educated guess about these things. I would take closer pictures but I'll need to get a new camera first.

The brass plates seem to have been on the bass for a while. There is a black outline along the edge of both the plates. And the inside of the pegbox doesn't look tampered with.

Anyways, I'm going back to the shop tomorrow to return it. I'll ask about it and get back to you. Thanks again!

[Ken Smith]

Neck/Scroll Grafts are quite common on old Basses. Actually I have a Shen from 1997 that had a Graft because the Neck was back bowing had a Knot in the wood and broke while trying to be straightened. Sill, a graft is on par with age for most basses.

The fact the the Varnish is the same on the Scroll and body points to being original. The added wood in the Heel of the Neck is a button to possibly make it longer for the overstand you have now. This is common even on newer Basses when the wood itself isn't long enough in that area. String length and Grafts are not related unless a longer or shorter neck itself is grafted. How long it grafts into the scroll is how long the Luthier decided to do it. My Candi goes almost all the way up the peg box while some other basses are grafted in less than half the box length. This is just how it was done and not related to any length factors.

When a new Neck is grafted it covers some of the old tuner scars 'inside' the peg box. The best way to look for signs of previous tuners is to take the plates off the outer cheeks and see what scars or plugs you find. Replaced Tuners are quite common but that Bass looks to be much nicer than the average bass you will see with those tuners. Like a man wearing a business suit and tennis shoes on his feet. A German Bass of that era would have had either Hat peg gears, nicer metal gears or possible even a 3-string if made for the English market as they were the last to go to the 4-string uniformly. That could explain the hasty choice for that grade of half plate German gears.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

The treatment of the button area looks Czech/Bohemian to me.

[Chang Min Lee]

Thanks Ken and Arnold for your replies. I returned the bass today and asked about the scroll and tuners. Different guy today and he had no idea. I asked about taking off the plates to see what might have been there before and he said it would take too much time & effort and might cause damage.

I guess I just don't know how much this bass is worth if it's a decent sounding instrument (10K-20K for sound) in decent playing shape, but no one knows the maker or where it's from, or seems to be interested in it for that matter. I forgot to ask them to ask the owner about what she knows of the origin, scroll, and tuners. I'll call them tomorrow about that.

Just a hypothetical question: Let's say this instrument is German or Bohemian. What kind of price would you put on it? I understand if the question isn't really fair considering the crappy pictures I took of the bass, and not before hearing the instrument.

Thanks!! I greatly appreciate the help!

[Ken Smith]

The bass should only be valued after personal inspection inside and out as well as playing and listening. Measurements concerning playability are important in the pricing because changes or modifications can get expensive.

Arnold says Bohemian/Czech but I have my doubts because of the round back. There are some Bohemian Basses with a round Back but most of them are Flatbacks. I still think it is more Germanic and could be from the German/Czech border area which would make us both right..

I asked about taking off the plates to see what might have been there before and he said it would take too much time & effort and might cause damage.

Taking the Tuners off can cause damage? Well if done by a 'Plummer' maybe but not any decent Luthier. It is one of the easiest things to do. The worst than can happen is that the sound post falls. At that point being this time of year, you will know the Post is too short for the Bass. That can cause damage, the Post being too short not the tuners. IF the removal of the Tuners will damage the Bass then something is wrong with the Bass.

We have many many old German and Czech basses here all over the country. Many or most of them were imported shop Basses of various grades. Some of them are nice handmade basses that found their way over here one way or another. Some of the Shop made basses can be very good but unless the condition is very good before hand, the needed restoration work is often not worthwhile. Unless you have 'your own' Luthier there looking and advising you stay away from Basses that seem OK priced that have bassbar or soundpost cracks repaired or not. Very often, the repairs are poorly done and will cost a pretty penny to re-restore. Older more valuable pedigree type instruments are another story. Those are usually worth fixing at almost any expense.

On the Tuners, look inside the pegbox with a light and see if the upper holes look like they were altered or not in the least way. Use a good light and get real close. If holes were plugged and re-drilled, it should be easy to see.

The Scroll, Scroll Button and the F-holes are very nice and non typical in my opinion. This is not a shop bass.

If the Bass is free from major cracks like I described, in good health and has a good orchestral sound, then the market price could easily be in that 10-20k range U$D. The sound must be there, must.

What are the measurements of this Bass? Use one of my templates for the DBs on my website and give all the same type numbers as shown there.

[Chang Min Lee]

Darn! Alas, I have returned the bass to the shop. So, I can't do the close inspection of the scroll or measurements. I was coming from a standpoint of "Is this bass an upgrade to mine in sound quality" rather than "Where's this bass from" for most of the trial week. Then I was thinking this bass was an improvement to mine and wondering what I should pay for it. Thus the thread; just a couple days before it was due back at the shop. And I play currently on a Kolstein Nardelli which has served me very well. I'm just looking for an upgrade. Not my final instrument (hopefully).

The sound by the way is rather good. Not the quality of 25k-40k instruments I've tried, but not like the thinner 8k Germans. It has a mature woody sound that is clear in the hall. Oh, and yes I tried it in the hall and had another play it in the hall next to a couple other basses and it projects well with a pretty tone (not nasal or tubby). It doesn't fill up the hall with a boomy bass as well as some of the other basses in the section, but it is present and an improvement to my current instrument. Besides, my colleagues are playing on basses worth more than I'm able to spend at the moment. Oh, and the setup is very close to what I need. I'm keeping this bass in mind, but still looking. If I come back to it I'll get it checked by a trusted luthier.

Thanks again, Ken! I'll post again if I have further info. And thanks for the forum. It seems like a nice place to hang out.