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Old 09-15-2009, 07:16 PM
Greg Lorisco Greg Lorisco is offline
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Default Bubinga and Purpleheart

Why are Bubinga and Purpleheart no longer used in neck laminates? That is what the Smith site indicates?
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Old 09-15-2009, 07:51 PM
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Cool why?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Lorisco View Post
Why are Bubinga and Purpleheart no longer used in neck laminates? That is what the Smith site indicates?
Don't need them! PH was used as a temp. experiment on the BMT's back in 1992/93. When the wood was used up, I decided not to continue with it.

Bubinga is sister to Shedua, both Guibourtia's. Like related Maples or Walnuts.. same family, different color. Morado and PH are both different species but all 4 of the woods mentioned have similar properties as far as neck strip reinforcements.

There are pluses and minuses with all of the above woods. This ranges from finish compatability to inherent defects of the species. The defects, you never really see because we cut around them and use only clean pieces.

The most defects and lowest yeild of usage vs purchased stock is the Morado. Slightly stiffer then the others. Morado is oily though and is difficuly to use for Oil finishes. It's great for fingerboards though as it has its own oil in it. PH is almost as hard as Morado but bends slightly easier. This is not a big problem but when we had the PH in stock we had to cut around many tiny pin knots in the wood cutting my yeild in half.

Bubinga is usually good clean wood but I have gotten some shipments that had loads of 'birth' defects. Big trees fall harded I guess. In high winds they split internally as well known as wind shake. This is less common in the Shedua that I have seen. Bubinga is sold in random widths and some are huge. I can get Shedua now (and have) in more manageble 4-7" sized lumber and with very good cutting yeild.

Shedua and Morado are brownish in tinge and warm to look at. Bubinga is a red brown color and not always blending in with its neighbors as well as the above mentioned woods. PH is just blinding and to my eye. Less warmth to it and I just never liked it, period.

So, the most user friendly of the 4 woods is.... Shedua. I even get some nice figured pieces mixed in the load for Top woods. When we started running out of Bubinga we started making necks with the unfigured Shedua we had in a pile sitting here for about 10 years. Then when the Bubinga had run out, we switched over totally for the Oiled models and the TNs which get Shedua. Only the Elites use Morado now but within a year or sos, out old stock will be all used up. At that point our 7 pc necks still in stock with Bubinga features (we make neck billets years in advance) will also get replaces with Shedua along with the Morado. The Shedua we have now is beautiful and aging nicely as well. I can get more if I need but I just bought about a 5-10 year supply depending on the model mix. I still have quite a bit of Morado for Bolt-on 5-pc Necks. I noticed today I have some 5pc BOs with Bubinga as well. The are well ages.. 5Ps anyone?

So, I use what I think works best and is not a big waste. Morado is good for only one of the two finishes we use. Shedua works for everything, it's available and we have it..

We have made excellent stable necks using all of the woods above. The reason for change is usually business and sometimes personal.
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Old 09-16-2009, 01:51 AM
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Rainer Bastian Rainer Bastian is offline
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Default Morado

Ken, very explanative. Thanks !

You mentioned that Morado is more oily than other woods. I own a BMT Elite with Morado top and back which seems to be satin finished (as the BSR GN series ?), which I had never seen on another 90s Smith bass. I am the first user so it must be original.
Is Morado not compatible with high gloss finishes ? I also read on the Smith page that Morado is discontinued as a top wood now ...






Sorry for highjacking this thread with Morado, but I refer to Ken's statements in the post before.
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Old 09-16-2009, 05:19 AM
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Cool Morado..

Morado finishes fine with Lacquer. Doing an Oil finish is the thing that is difficult. Oiling Oil in a way. We have done it but it's very difficult to do. Ebony is another wood that is difficult to Oil as well as Cocobolo for the same reasons.
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Old 09-16-2009, 11:34 AM
Greg Lorisco Greg Lorisco is offline
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Default

Thanks Ken, this is great info.

I have two more questions:
  • What are the tone differences between these woods for the neck? Will the newer basses using only Shedua and Morado have a different tone than the current or older Smiths using Bubinga and PH?

  • Will the Morado neck laminate be more stable than Shedua or the others due to the oil in the wood? My understanding is that necks shift due to moister changes and wood that is more oily would seem to not have as much change. True? So would this be why the Mordao is on the Elite (higher end materials, more expensive, etc)?
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Old 09-16-2009, 01:50 PM
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Cool well...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Lorisco View Post
Thanks Ken, this is great info.

I have two more questions:
  • What are the tone differences between these woods for the neck? Will the newer basses using only Shedua and Morado have a different tone than the current or older Smiths using Bubinga and PH?
  • Will the Morado neck laminate be more stable than Shedua or the others due to the oil in the wood? My understanding is that necks shift due to moister changes and wood that is more oily would seem to not have as much change. True? So would this be why the Morado is on the Elite (higher end materials, more expensive, etc)?
Morado was the first wood we used for neck strips since the beginning. When the Oiled models came out after doing Lacquers we found that the Oil was harder to do. Before the Laq. models, we just did it, period.

There is no 'in-service' difference that we can point a finger at one way or another. The Strips under the Fingerboard are partly routed away for the Graphite bars that are inlaid so the darker wood strips that you see are partly cosmetic at that point as far as structure goes. The Graphite is a great equalizer.

The mass in a Neck is mainly Maple with an Ebony FB in most cases. That is where the sound comes from. There are as many variables between the maple pieces from neck to neck to alter the sound in a minuscule way that the laminated strips in the neck make little difference in the sound that you hear. I have yet to hear a difference. A 7-pc neck with the wider exotic center vs a 5-pc neck with a maple center is noticibly different to my ear. Maybe a 2-5% change in tone overall to my ear. The 7-pc construction on its own is the main change. Like in the MS models with 3-pc maple only, I hear a difference as compared to a 5-pc with exotic features.. still, 5% at most.

The EYES play tricks on us. Like eating food. Don't eat or order with your eyes. Taste the food!
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Old 09-16-2009, 06:22 PM
Greg Lorisco Greg Lorisco is offline
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Morado was the first wood we used for neck strips since the beginning. When the Oiled models came out after doing Lacquers we found that the Oil was harder to do. Before the Laq. models, we just did it, period.

There is no 'in-service' difference that we can point a finger at one way or another. The Strips under the Fingerboard are partly routed away for the Graphite bars that are inlaid so the darker wood strips that you see are partly cosmetic at that point as far as structure goes. The Graphite is a great equalizer.

The mass in a Neck is mainly Maple with an Ebony FB in most cases. That is where the sound comes from. There are as many variables between the maple pieces from neck to neck to alter the sound in a minuscule way that the laminated strips in the neck make little difference in the sound that you hear. I have yet to hear a difference. A 7-pc neck with the wider exotic center vs a 5-pc neck with a maple center is noticibly different to my ear. Maybe a 2-5% change in tone overall to my ear. The 7-pc construction on its own is the main change. Like in the MS models with 3-pc maple only, I hear a difference as compared to a 5-pc with exotic features.. still, 5% at most.

The EYES play tricks on us. Like eating food. Don't eat or order with your eyes. Taste the food!

Thanks Ken.

Are the 7-piece necks brighter than the 5-piece?

Same for the 3 vs 5 piece body?

Do they all have that distinctive growl? (That tone is just awesome)
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Old 09-16-2009, 10:37 PM
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Cool 7vs5, 3vs5

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Lorisco View Post
Thanks Ken.

Are the 7-piece necks brighter than the 5-piece?

Same for the 3 vs 5 piece body?

Do they all have that distinctive growl? (That tone is just awesome)
If all the wood species are the same, we can compare but sound vs # of pieces. If the species of wood is different, then it's apples to oranges. Right?

7pc with Bubinga sounds brighter than 5pc with Morado. I never made a 7pc with Morado, never. The 7pc model has 7pc wings as well vs 5n5. So that's another variable.

3pc maple only neck is a different model than those with 5pc necks as well as the body wings being laminated for the most part.. apples vs oranges, again..

Basic rule; if you laminate more, the sound gets brighter. How bright is too bright. How deep is too deep? Apples vs potatoes.. Same size and texture, way way different taste..
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Old 08-29-2010, 08:43 AM
Anton Hasias Anton Hasias is offline
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Question

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Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Basic rule; if you laminate more, the sound gets brighter. How bright is too bright. How deep is too deep?
I have some questions Ken;

In order to obtain a smooth mellow tone with warm mids. on a 25th Anniversary 5string fretless, is it a 5piece laminated neck more appropiate than a 7piece?
Is it the same for the body (Bubinga T&B with mahogany core)?
Is it possible to have the 25th Anniversary fretless bass with oil finish instead of the current lacqueur Elite finish?

Thank you and best regards

Last edited by Anton Hasias; 08-29-2010 at 08:53 AM.
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Old 08-29-2010, 12:59 PM
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Lightbulb well..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anton Hasias View Post
I have some questions Ken;

In order to obtain a smooth mellow tone with warm mids. on a 25th Anniversary 5string fretless, is it a 5piece laminated neck more appropiate than a 7piece?
Is it the same for the body (Bubinga T&B with mahogany core)?
Is it possible to have the 25th Anniversary fretless bass with oil finish instead of the current lacqueur Elite finish?

Thank you and best regards
I have to break this down..

The 5 or 7 piece neck sound depends on the woods used to make it, not just the number of pieces. We have made our 7 pc necks at least 3 different ways up until now and a 4th way is the current spec replacing Bubinga with Shedua. The sound and feel is less of a difference than the look as these are two related species with similar properties.

In the Body as with the neck you can only compare the sound of the various numbers of laminations between them if the same woods are used with the exception of that extra lamination.

In the body, it's just another layer of veneer per side but in the neck, the center wide strip goes from maple in a 5 pc to Shedua (or Bubinga in the past) in a 7pc. So, the differences are not just numbers but woods and the ratio of mass of each in the formula.

A 7&7 combo sounds usually snappier than a 5&5 combo in the same basic woods used. I don't know what would have to be done to make the 5&5 be brighter than the 7&7 short of something drastic in the woods used. So, 7&7 is brighter/snappier sounding and feeling than 5&5.

On the finish, yes we can do the oil/varnish in place of the lacquer and would also be a slightly smoother sounding instrument.

If you want smooth and deep for your fretless, 5&5 with oil/varnish finish should do the trick.

We have also mixed this making 5&7 or 7&5. I actually have basses in stock right now like this. I have an Elite with a 7pc nk and the White Tiger Vintage with the 7pc wings/5pc nk combo.

It's all good but not all the same.
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