Identifying a bass as carved or laminate

[Ted Burik]

Hi everyone:

First thread on KSB Bass Forums. Could anyone here provide input as to how I could identify a bass as carved or laminate? I'm considering buying a 1977 E. Wilfer bass and it appears to be fully carved spruce in front and maple in back. The front has the usual grain markings on the edge indicative of spruce. The back is a bit tougher-the maple is not highly figured, so it does not show through on the edge and I'm not seeing too much looking inside the bass for a maple grain.

I very much trust the shop where I am buying the bass, however, I thought it would be valuable to understand how to make the identification myself. Any thoughts?

Ted Burik

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ted Burik

Hi everyone:

First thread on KSB Bass Forums. Could anyone here provide input as to how I could identify a bass as carved or laminate? I'm considering buying a 1977 E. Wilfer bass and it appears to be fully carved spruce in front and maple in back. The front has the usual grain markings on the edge indicative of spruce. The back is a bit tougher-the maple is not highly figured, so it does not show through on the edge and I'm not seeing too much looking inside the bass for a maple grain.

I very much trust the shop where I am buying the bass, however, I thought it would be valuable to understand how to make the identification myself. Any thoughts?

Ted Burik

Look at the edges for layers or cross grain. Maple does not have a solid color as it is wavy grained wood. It is hard to hide a glue joint. If laminated, it should be noticeable.

[Ted Burik]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Look at the edges for layers or cross grain. Maple does not have a solid color as it is wavy grained wood. It is hard to hide a glue joint. If laminated, it should be noticeable.

Thanks, Ken. Do you mean by glue joint a noticeable piece of wood place between the back and ribs? There isn't one on the bass I'm considering buying-looks like a single piece of wood attached to the ribs and neck heel. Ted

[Martin Sheridan]

Ask your shop bass expert to show you. That's the best way to learn and any reputable dealer will be happy to do so. On carved basses the grain will show through at the edges of both top and back. The sides are a little more difficult, but if you examine what the wood looks like under the varnish in the C bout and look inside the bass and examine the inside of the bout it will look the same except for the varnish. Some German makers were very good at touching up the eges to hide the laminate and on those you have to find where the varnish is worn off the edges to see the grain or the laminate.
The cheaper laminated basses are very easy to tell because they don't make any attempt to hide the laminate on the sides. Remember also that there are basses with solid wood tops, and laminated backs and sides and I've seen some that have solid tops and backs but laminated sides.
All bass players should take a little time to learn to recognize if a bass is solid, laminated or hybrid. Your bass person will be happy to educate you.

[Ted Burik]

Thanks, Martin-this is very helpful. I'm going to follow your advice and ask my shop bass expert to show me how he identified my potential purchase as a fully carved instrument. For what it's worth-the bass I'm looking to purchase is a 1977 3/4 E. Wilfer, labeled "West Germany" and "model 54." My bass shop is asking $7500. The bass appears to have only minor dings and a couple of small repaired cracks. In speaking with my bass shop expert, I was able to discern maple grain on the back edge so I'm pretty confident the bass is fully carved. My shop bass expert also confirmed that the bass is carved (I definitely trust him). The bass is a "heavy" bass, evidently made with more more wood than other "lighter" basses. My bass shop expert says this is what contributes to the more focused, growly, mid-range tone of the instrument-very percussive and forward sounding. This definitely suits my playing style. Any thoughts on the current asking price for the instrument?

[Sam Sherry]

Originally Posted by Ted Burik

The bass is a "heavy" bass, evidently made with more more wood than other "lighter" basses. My bass shop expert says this is what contributes to the more focused, growly, mid-range tone of the instrument-very percussive and forward sounding.

In my limited experience:

a) Most of the time a string instrument which is "lightly" built will be louder than an "identical" instrument which is "heavily" built.

This is a rough rule of thumb, not The Law Of Gravity. There are plenty of exceptions based on factors including the intrinsic rigidity/density/tensile properties of particular pieces of wood, how the instrument is set up and strung, and how is instrument is built and shaped. That's why it is so important to actually play the actual basses you are considering whenever possible.

b) "Growl" is a function of how the fingerboard is planed, what the strings are, string height, and above all THE PLAYER. Again, that's why it is so important to actually play the actual basses you are considering whenever possible.

In short, although I would often disagree with what your salesman is saying I have no way to know whether s/he is right or wrong about this particular bass.

Hope this helps. Happy hunting!

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

In my limited experience:

a) Most of the time a string instrument which is "lightly" built will be louder than an "identical" instrument which is "heavily" built.

This is a rough rule of thumb, not The Law Of Gravity. There are plenty of exceptions based on factors including the intrinsic rigidity/density/tensile properties of particular pieces of wood, how the instrument is set up and strung, and how is instrument is built and shaped. That's why it is so important to actually play the actual basses you are considering whenever possible.

b) "Growl" is a function of how the fingerboard is planed, what the strings are, string height, and above all THE PLAYER. Again, that's why it is so important to actually play the actual basses you are considering whenever possible.

In short, although I would often disagree with what your salesman is saying I have no way to know whether s/he is right or wrong about this particular bass.

Hope this helps. Happy hunting!

Lol.. and you learned all of this in Law school?

I do not totally agree with your opinions.

If the wood is too stiff and wont vibrate easily, you wont get too much growl. Growl from the string and growl from the wood are two different types of growls. Usually, the more growl from either, the less the bass bows well.

How loud a bass is up close and how well the sound travels is different depending on the actual bass, light or heavy.

On the salesman thing, it's Steve Swan and from my experience and his reputation is very trustworthy so no need to go there for now. If Steve says it's fully carved, it is. He knows the difference!

[Ted Burik]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Lol.. and you learned all of this in Law school?

I do not totally agree with your opinions.

If the wood is too stiff and wont vibrate easily, you wont get too much growl. Growl from the string and growl from the wood are two different types of growls. Usually, the more growl from either, the less the bass bows well.

How loud a bass is up close and how well the sound travels is different depending on the actual bass, light or heavy.

On the salesman thing, it's Steve Swan and from my experience and his reputation is very trustworthy so no need to go there for now. If Steve says it's fully carved, it is. He knows the difference!

Thanks for all the replies. I played 12 of the 40 basses Steve had in his shop and really loved the sound of the Wilfer. I brought home for audition the Wilfer and 2 other basses on Steve's suggestion that were more "open" sounding-wider bottom, a bit sweeter in the top end.-than the Wilfer End result is that I like the Wilfer best for multiple reasons, including, tone, playability, size, and price. Steve is certainly a guy with great integrity and "trust in the universe," as a result, I really trust him and have decided on the Wilfer. That said, there are some important things I want to do in setting up the bass, including having the fingerboard profile adjusted a bit to suit my jazz pizz playing and adding an adjustable bridge. I'm also toying with taking the strings down from Thomastic Spirocore Mittels to Weichs. I've used Weichs in the past with good outcomes. I'm just a little concerned about losing some of the tonal characteristics of the bass going to a lighter string.

[Sam Sherry]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Lol.. and you learned all of this in Law school?

Actually, all this is from The WorldWide Web. I hope to play a double-bass some day but in the meantime I just flap my gums and play my Squire Precision. ;>

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I do not totally agree with your opinions.

I've always said that you know, based on personally working with some of the finest basses around. My hat comes off again.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

On the salesman thing, it's . . .

I have no beef with anybody and did not mean to call out anybody. I've never interacted with Steve and have no basis to form any opinion about him other than that he seems to type well when appearing on the sites.

I was merely underscoring that when someone reports hearing a salesman say, "All [PURPLE] basses sound more [PEPPERY] than all [ORANGE] basses," we have to wonder whether the quote is accurately rendered and/or whether the quote is entirely disinterested. (They actually kinda DO teach that in law school, for better or worse. It's a curse.)

All the very best in the new year, Ken. Thanks again for all you do and please buy a lot of nice basses so I can remain constructively jealous!

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

All the very best in the new year, Ken. Thanks again for all you do and please buy a lot of nice basses so I can remain constructively jealous!

The same to you and yours and I will do my best to make you feel how you always have on the past..