Ken's Corner (Bass Forums Sponsored By KSB)

Go Back   Ken's Corner (Bass Forums Sponsored By KSB) > Double Basses > Bows (and Rosin etc)

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 03-06-2007, 10:53 AM
Dwight McCartney Dwight McCartney is offline
Junior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-22-2007
Location: Wilkeson WA
Posts: 24
Dwight McCartney is on a distinguished road
Default Would I benefit from a new bow?

I have been taking lessons for about 6 months and I use an inexpensive ($100.) bow right now. It seems to work for what I am doing, I wonder if I am at a point where this could be holding me back? As a still relative beginner, would I notice the difference if I got a Loveri or other bow in that catagory?
All suggestions or ideas welcome,
thanks,
Dwight
__________________
Dwight
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 03-06-2007, 11:38 AM
Michael Holden Michael Holden is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-11-2007
Location: Stuart, FLorida
Posts: 37
Michael Holden is on a distinguished road
Default

The best way to judge is to use your instructors bow (hopefully it is of better quality than yours.) Play a variety of passages and, be honest, can you pull a better sound from the better bow. Then say "Is this improvement in sound really worth another $400-$1,000?"... if it is, than yes... if it isn't then your bow is working just fine. IMHO.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 03-07-2007, 01:51 AM
Dwight McCartney Dwight McCartney is offline
Junior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-22-2007
Location: Wilkeson WA
Posts: 24
Dwight McCartney is on a distinguished road
Default

Yes, great idea. I will try that next lesson. Thanks.
__________________
Dwight
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 03-10-2007, 01:10 AM
Dwight McCartney Dwight McCartney is offline
Junior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-22-2007
Location: Wilkeson WA
Posts: 24
Dwight McCartney is on a distinguished road
Default

Yes, my goodness, there was a very noticable difference.
While I don't know the terminology to describe it, my teachers bow was easier to play and get good steady sound with, and felt better...balance?

Time to do some serious shopping I guess.
__________________
Dwight
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 03-10-2007, 01:27 AM
Michael Holden Michael Holden is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-11-2007
Location: Stuart, FLorida
Posts: 37
Michael Holden is on a distinguished road
Default

Yes IMHO that is the one of the hardest part about handmaking a bow, the balance of the bow. An inexpensive, student model bow will fight you everyway, that's what's happening to me now.
Right now I'm getting 5 Horst John bows in the mail to try out, and looking for much better balance, and sound. I just try everything in my power to use every bow that I come in contact with, If you pick up one bow, then pick up an identical bow from the same bowmaker, it will be completely different. Some great bassists use bows that are only about $500-$1,000 just because it is perfect for them. That's why I don't agree with a lot of people (not going to mention names) who brag about their bow made from a very reputable bow maker, and paid thousands and thousands of dollars for it, and they ignore the $400 bows... when those $400 bows they ignore may be the best bow they have (n)ever used.
So be sure you don't say "okay ... I'm getting a nice bow from a decent bowmaker, it has to be good" ... you may get it and it be crap (not saying the bow will... but for your playing style it may not work).
Uptonbass.com has a bow that I want very badly. Unfortunately they don't have the option of trying the bow before purchasing. So I'm not going to purchase it just because of that fact. chances are it's a good bow... but I'm not going to fork out $2,000 for a bow I'm not 100% is going to be perfect for me.
Good luck looking for that perfect bow... I'll tell you from my recent experiance... it's a lot of work , fun work, but work none the less
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 03-10-2007, 06:41 AM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool $400 the best?

I don't know what Bows you are trying but in todays world, a $400 Bow is usually Chinese made regardless of where it is shipped from. I have contracted almost 200 Bows made by a top shop in China. These are good playing well balanced Bows of my design. Some are better than others but comparing them in sound, playability or feel they do not make it up to the likes of my Bazin, Bultitude, Lipkins or even the Eibert Bows I have not to mention the Sartory I used to own.

Good is good but great is not easy to come by. Also, not all Bows that cost thousands are great Bows either. This is where you start looking back at your $400 Bow. When you draw a Bow across the strings it vibrates like any other wood part of your Bass. This translates to the feel of the Bow. Does the Bow sit on the String itself of do you have to use hand/wrist pressure to make it work? Can you get the sound with ease or do you have to fight it a bit or more. Does it play evenly from Frog to Tip or does the sound quit after the first half of the Bow? Is the tone thinner sounding than the more expensive Bow or is it just as thick and full?

I have owned many many 'great' Bows in my life and a few expensive ones that were not so great. Unless the Bow is made with god consistent materials by a good maker (in China, Brazil or anywhere else) and with a goos design, it will be hard to find a Bow that comes close to one of the known great makers works.

Also, I find that beginner players have trouble judging a Bow because the may have already developed bad habits compensating with a bad un-balanced Bow with a weak Tip response/performance, their technique is not fully developed and the ear for judging is not yet refined. Also, what kind of Bass are you testing this with? The lower cost Basses can have their own set of problems as well making it harder to judge plus you need to have good orchestral bowing strings on the Bass as well.

The Loveri model Bows we have made for us were first tested and compared to my Lipkins Bow. At about 1/10th the price we here at the shop agreed it was scary close reaching 60-80% the sound and performance of a 5-6k cost/value Bow. I use that term 'cost/value' together because they are made now at that price and sell used around the same selling price when purchased.

At one concert last summer I brought 3 C.Loveri Bows from the first batch made. With 2 other Basses in the section than day, I came home with only one Bow, selling the other two to my section mates. Having another Professional buy your Bow on the spot speaks for itself...
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 03-10-2007, 10:01 AM
Dwight McCartney Dwight McCartney is offline
Junior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-22-2007
Location: Wilkeson WA
Posts: 24
Dwight McCartney is on a distinguished road
Default

I'm not looking for a several thousand dollar pro bow. I just know that using my teachers bow, I didn't have to pressure the bow into the strings, just needed to move it across and it sounded good. And it was easier to hold.
__________________
Dwight
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 03-10-2007, 10:42 AM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Lightbulb better Bow..

Quote:
Originally Posted by DMcCartney View Post
I'm not looking for a several thousand dollar pro bow. I just know that using my teachers bow, I didn't have to pressure the bow into the strings, just needed to move it across and it sounded good. And it was easier to hold.
I know, but my point is that even though you can find a better Bow like the ones discussed, they do not match up to the master Bows that cost 10x the price. A workable Bow and a master Bow are two different things but not all expensive Bows are as-workable. I hope you understand my meaning here.
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 03-10-2007, 11:36 AM
Michael Holden Michael Holden is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-11-2007
Location: Stuart, FLorida
Posts: 37
Michael Holden is on a distinguished road
Default

I think we do understand your point, my point is the pricetag is not a good way to determine a good bow. How many times do you see "unamed german bow $3,000". I have found in my experiance that those bows are priced based on it's playing capabilities. Now the owner of that string shop is the person determining the price. Ken, you are quite the experianced bass player, and although I have never heard you, I am going to assume you are a good player. If you picked up that bow, after owning a sartory, and your lipkins bows; you may have said "okay that bow is $800"
It is all relative. In my personal experiance I have tried 3 german bows (french frog, origin in Germany) and I have also tried 2 Marco Raposo bows... One of the Raposo Bows KILLED the German bows. The other Raposo was good but not great. I also think the Brazilian bowmakers do not get the credit they deserve. They charge must less for more bow. Everybody I've been talking to says that is due to the fact they don't have to import their wood, that they just take it from their plantations... I don't buy that just because every Raposo bow I have tried is definitly just as capable and playable has the $2k bows I have tried, The raposo bows are going for $1k. I don't see getting rid of the "importing costs" of importing the wood cutting the cost of the bow in half.
I'm not comparing these to Sartory or Lipkins bows... but I am comparing these to MANY bows out there in the $2k price range.
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 03-10-2007, 12:01 PM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool 2k range..

That is fairly an open market up to 2-3k I must admit. I have two Bows made in NY by Peter Eibert. He is German and although he made me a Sartory model as the second Bow, still I can see his German styling throughout. I bought the first one from him a year or so earlier and although he asked for less as it was an older Bow, the stick is better and plays better too.

Prices are sometimes parallel to the makers economy and sometimes it's what the market will bare. In the case of Lipkins and Fuchs being two of the best, they can command their price whereas makers of less repute may only collect 50-75% of the price of the top makers prices regardless of how good they are.

Also, makers that are not as good as the Top may also make Bows that don't perform any better than a good grade Chinese Bow but still charge 2-3k or more for their efforts.

Some Bows are beautifully made but just don't work so well while some ugly ducklings sound sweet as pie but need a blind eye to look at...lol
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 03-10-2007, 12:08 PM
Michael Holden Michael Holden is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-11-2007
Location: Stuart, FLorida
Posts: 37
Michael Holden is on a distinguished road
Default

Yea I am looking forward to these Horst John bows... from the pictures that I can see the heel of the frog is a sharp corner, I've never used a bow without it being rounded on the heel of the frog. But after using the Raposo bows I am VERY surprised in the brazilian bowmakers. so I'm open to trying new things
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 03-10-2007, 12:37 PM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Lightbulb compare...

I would nice to have all these Bows in one room to compare and judge their values and consistencies from bow to bow within each brand/maker.
Reply With Quote
  #13  
Old 03-10-2007, 01:55 PM
Michael Holden Michael Holden is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-11-2007
Location: Stuart, FLorida
Posts: 37
Michael Holden is on a distinguished road
Default

I agree, and I think that's where 90% of the debate comes from when it comes to bows. If you take one bow and play it on one bass, it could some great... take the same bow and put it on a different bass, and it sounds like crap. Now take the same combination, put it in a different bass player's hands and it will sound 100% different, that is my point. Ken, if you were to give me a sartory bow, and a $20k bass. I'd sound like me, now if you gave the principle bassist in the NY Philharmonic, a palentino and a $50 chinese bow... he's sound completely better then me. There are way too many factors to say "This bow is better" or "this bass is better" .. it's whatever works for the individual musician.
I don't mean to beat the proverbial dead horse... but isn't Edgar Meyer's bow a cheapo? I don't know about you.. but I think he's a decent bassist...
and I hate to start another debate, but I also think the hair on the bow plays a larger part then most musicians admit to.
Reply With Quote
  #14  
Old 03-10-2007, 05:59 PM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Lightbulb huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Holden View Post
I agree, and I think that's where 90% of the debate comes from when it comes to bows. If you take one bow and play it on one bass, it could some great... take the same bow and put it on a different bass, and it sounds like crap. Now take the same combination, put it in a different bass player's hands and it will sound 100% different, that is my point. Ken, if you were to give me a sartory bow, and a $20k bass. I'd sound like me, now if you gave the principle bassist in the NY Philharmonic, a palentino and a $50 chinese bow... he's sound completely better then me. There are way too many factors to say "This bow is better" or "this bass is better" .. it's whatever works for the individual musician.
I don't mean to beat the proverbial dead horse... but isn't Edgar Meyer's bow a cheapo? I don't know about you.. but I think he's a decent bassist...
and I hate to start another debate, but I also think the hair on the bow plays a larger part then most musicians admit to.
I do not agree with you. A good sounding Bass or Bow is just that. Sure a better player can make a bass sound better but a lesser player sounds better with better equipment and will develop better technique as well. I don't know where you get your ides from but in my world sound is sound. On the Hair, yes it makes a difference but a Bow can sound its best only with good hair. White or Black sounds different but matching hair as a bit like matching strings but with less choices.

On Edgar's Bow costing $10? Where and when did he buy it? I heard that Bob Riccardi (former owner of my Cornerless Bass for 40 years who died a few months ago) once found a Sartory Bass Bow at a flea market for a few bucks as well? Does that make his Bow a $10 Bow too? What a Bow costs and what a Bow IS is not always the same thing.

I paid $400 for my Sartory! Does that make it a $400 Bow? Now it's 10-15k. The previous one sold in NY b4 mine was $200 a few years earlier.

$5-$20 was the going rate for German Shop Bows in the mid to late '60s into the '70s. These included the Bows from Juzek/Metropolitan Music. My Roche Bow was $60. My Vitale was $75. It broke at the Screw end a few years later, was fixed and sold a few years later. Repaired, I sold it for $125 to a VERY famous Bass player who wasn't famous then. All this before 1972 in case you are wondering.

I am sure that if Edgar used a Sartory or Bultitude, he and his Bass would sound better. I too can use a cheapo Bow on my Basses but that doesn't mean it's the best I can sound. I can also play a piece of crap Bass and make it sound but polishing a turd is not my way of making music.

Bottom line, get the best you can afford and keep it well repaired. Don't get caught up on who can make what piece of junk sound better than a beginner can make it sound. Where does that theory get you?
Reply With Quote
  #15  
Old 03-10-2007, 09:19 PM
Michael Holden Michael Holden is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-11-2007
Location: Stuart, FLorida
Posts: 37
Michael Holden is on a distinguished road
Default

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. A good bass player is not one that can take $100,000 worth of instrument and make it sound great. It's a person who can take any instrument and make it sound great. I agree with you, the key is to buy the best gear you can afford and keep it in good repair. But I do disagree with your previous statement.
I heard a great statement on another bass forum. "The bass is the canvas and the bow is the brush... you decide which is more important." Well give a 3 yr old a $10k canvas... then a $3,000 brush... let's see him do his best, then go to walmart.. by a $5 brush and $7 paint sketch book, and give it to DaVinci... let's see who's painting you'd rather have.
Now back to my point, if daVinci felt better painting with a $5 brush, would he be less of an artist? what if the expensive brush didn't "fit" him as well as the cheap one... would he not have been the artist that he was? Mr. Smith I don't know you, so I cannot point fingers, but I know string players who when shopping for a bow, will not touch a bow under $3,000. I disagree with their idea of bow quality, because they may like a $1,000 bow better then their current $3k... My opinion is... if your budget is $3k... try every bow from $600 - $3k that you can... the lesser priced ones may surprise you.
Reply With Quote
  #16  
Old 03-11-2007, 08:21 AM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool You don't know me?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Holden View Post
I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. A good bass player is not one that can take $100,000 worth of instrument and make it sound great. It's a person who can take any instrument and make it sound great. I agree with you, the key is to buy the best gear you can afford and keep it in good repair. But I do disagree with your previous statement.
I heard a great statement on another bass forum. "The bass is the canvas and the bow is the brush... you decide which is more important." Well give a 3 yr old a $10k canvas... then a $3,000 brush... let's see him do his best, then go to walmart.. by a $5 brush and $7 paint sketch book, and give it to DaVinci... let's see who's painting you'd rather have.
Now back to my point, if daVinci felt better painting with a $5 brush, would he be less of an artist? what if the expensive brush didn't "fit" him as well as the cheap one... would he not have been the artist that he was? Mr. Smith I don't know you, so I cannot point fingers, but I know string players who when shopping for a bow, will not touch a bow under $3,000. I disagree with their idea of bow quality, because they may like a $1,000 bow better then their current $3k... My opinion is... if your budget is $3k... try every bow from $600 - $3k that you can... the lesser priced ones may surprise you.
Well, I don't know you either except your 23 and playing only a short time. I have played for over 40 years and know the Bass and the Bass business better than most.

Dealers will price Bows according to name and quality. A good Bow as good as a 3k Bow will not sell for $600, sry. If it's good, it will be priced for what the maker will bare. If it's a name maker, it will be priced according to the maker and quality combined. Sartory can go from 10-15k on average. That will vary in a single Shop by the individual Bow but different Shops in different parts of the world may sell them higher or lower. Some dealers ship Instruments and Bows to other dealers where they will being more money. This is called networking. Did you know that networking exists in this business too?

The Bultitude Bow I sold was on consignment with me from a London Shop. I sold the Bow for them as I could sell it here and they couldn't sell it there at the time.

I don't know what you are getting at with your brush thing but better Basses are just that and will sound better no mater who plays them and the same goes for Bows. Yes, the better player can get more out of it but why would he play on a lesser instrument?

Find me a Bow exactly like the one Edgar has and get it for $10. I dare you! His claim of using a $10 Bow is more of a figure of speech as even the cheapest Chinese Bows that sell for $50-$100 are barely usable by any Pro player. His Bow is more like an older German stick he picked up somewhere at a bargain price a long time ago. That doesn't make it a $10 Bow because he got it for $10.

If I find and English Bass for 5k broken and fix it and can get 60k for it, does that make it a 5k Bass if I haven't yet sold it? What you pay is not necessarily the value of what you have.

I just sold a $20 Prescott for almost 50k? Do you believe me? In 1820, it sold new for $20. I have the Prescott records from 1808-1828 with all his sales figures so I know this. But, 186 years later, the price just happens to be a little higher? Does that mean I played in a Symphony with a $20 Bass because that's what it first cost?

Just because a good player can make crap sound better than a beginner can, don't think that's what they would rather play. Also, don't think a better player sounds the same on a 100K as he does on a cheap plywood Bass either.

There is a reason why people pay the prices they do for good Basses and Bows. One day, you will understand this further than just the written word.
Reply With Quote
  #17  
Old 03-11-2007, 11:48 AM
Michael Holden Michael Holden is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-11-2007
Location: Stuart, FLorida
Posts: 37
Michael Holden is on a distinguished road
Default

Mr. Smith I do appreciate your experiance, and I also appreciate how "respected" you are in the industry. I just completely disagree with you. I do agree that there are better bows out there... I do agree there are better basses, I also agree that bows in the $3k range are better then the bows in the $800 range.
But I disagree that the $3k bows are best for EVERYBODY. I have been playing classical bass for a short period of time.. but i've play violin since I was 4. So I do have some experiance in the matter. My violin teacher (of 6 years) Was a professional musician. She had a bow, which I don't remember the exact price.. but it was under $1,000. And she impressed upon me, that bows aren't judged by it's price tag. She owned a bow that was much more expensive then her main $1k bow. She said a bow is all about feel. She said she bought the very expensive bows because it helped with one aspect of her playing, but her main bow was the cheaper one. It felt better to her and was easier for her to play.
So Mr. Smith you could be the greatest bass player in the world, but you will never have me agree that any bow over $3k is good for everybody.
Reply With Quote
  #18  
Old 03-11-2007, 02:37 PM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Lightbulb Violin Bow?

Michael, a Violin does not need the pull strength like a Bass does for Bowing.

Just imagine a Bass in your left hand playing like butter with all the smoothness, depth and power without any effort and then imagine a Bow on that Bass that bows like butter from Frog to Tip effortlessly never having to use any wrist pressure to play the note unless dynamics are needed. The Bow just dances on the String any which way you want it to as if you almost have magic technique that you never had before. After 2 or 3 hours of playing, you hands feel fine as if all you did was type a Post on this Forum.

That's what it's like to play a Great Bass and Bow. I do it every day and believe me, "I" can tell the difference even if some others can't.

Experience doesn't come in a bottle. Maybe in 5, 10 or even 20 years you will understand what I am talking about from actually experiencing this rather than just reading or arguing about it.
Reply With Quote
  #19  
Old 03-11-2007, 04:52 PM
Michael Holden Michael Holden is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-11-2007
Location: Stuart, FLorida
Posts: 37
Michael Holden is on a distinguished road
Default

So Ken... are you saying since the violin doesn't need the pull strength of a bass... the bow doesn't make as big of a difference on the violin??? I'm sorry, That is just more garbage. I'm glad "you" can tell a difference...I can do, BUT I have found a $700 bow which I like better then my instructors Reid Hudson. I have found a $1,300 Prochownik that I had a professional bassist at a string shop play, next to another Reid Hudson... he said the Prochownik was worth more. Every bassist is different, now if you need your expensive bows to play well and feel good playing it, thats you...But I know for me, I didn't like the REid Hudson's I've played, I liked the prochownik better. As did the professional bassist... who I had this same conversation with and he said he had a bow (don't recall the maker) he said it was worth about $8k.. and he said he hated it.. he sold it after having it for 3 months and returned to his $4k. I'm not saying expensive bows aren't good... I'm saying, sometimes cheaper bows are better for certain people... you have to try all bows.
Reply With Quote
  #20  
Old 03-11-2007, 05:23 PM
Nick Hart Nick Hart is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-21-2007
Location: Cincinnati, OH
Posts: 36
Nick Hart is on a distinguished road
Default

This is an interesting topic, and Ken and Michael are both right. My teacher has a Fetique and a couple of other very high quality bows. But he also has a $400 carbon fiber bow and a couple of mid range bows (800-2000). Are all of these bows equal in quality? Not at all, but he prefers different bows for different things, and I can assure you he sounds the same with every bow, and sounds just as good.

Sound does not come from an instrument or a bow, it comes from the player. Good instruments and good bows make it easier to get that sound. My teacher creates the same sound on my bass that he does on his Ruggieri (granted my bass does sound younger and he has to work a whole lot harder to get that sound on my bass). But his sounds is his sound no matter what instrument he plays on. None of our basses sound as good as the Ruggieri and none of our bows are as good as the Fetique, and when he plays those two together it makes for an amazing sound, but the equipment just enhances the sound, it does not create the sound. I can pretty much guarantee that I will get the same sound out of just about any bow you give me, the difference is cheaper bows work against you, and quality bows such as Fetique and Reid Hudson work for you.
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 03:22 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2007 - Ken Smith Basses, LTD. (All Rights Reserved)