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  #1  
Old 03-30-2012, 09:47 PM
Mike Weems Mike Weems is offline
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Default 5 string neck graft or not?

Hello I have a 3/4 Czech bass most likely made in the 30's that at some point was converted from a 4 to 5 string. I wish the leave it as a 5 string but the neck width at the nut is 42mm. Should I graft this scroll to a new neck and if so what is the optimum neck width at the nut and end?

Thank you in advance for any help.
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  #2  
Old 03-31-2012, 12:24 AM
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Default 4 to 5?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Weems View Post
Hello I have a 3/4 Czech bass most likely made in the 30's that at some point was converted from a 4 to 5 string. I wish the leave it as a 5 string but the neck width at the nut is 42mm. Should I graft this scroll to a new neck and if so what is the optimum neck width at the nut and end?

Thank you in advance for any help.
When was this converted? Can we see some pics of the bass? Is the bassbar beefed up for 5-strings?

You can put a wide fingerboard on that neck and fan it outwards to be wider than a 4. Also, you have to be careful cutting the Nut slots and angling them into the Pegbox without rubbing the insides of the cheeks.

This is strung for Orchestra with a Low B?
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  #3  
Old 03-31-2012, 03:11 PM
Mike Weems Mike Weems is offline
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Ok sorry for the lack of info. I asked this question last night after a long day. I should have let you know that I am a professional luthier. I have been so for 29 years. I have made violins, violas, and guitars in addition to fretted and bowed instrument restoration. The extent of double bass repair that I have done has been mostly school basses and lost of Kay basses for the area blue grass people. I purchased this bass and an old flat back from friend a month ago. The top was off and there were no fittings aside from the tuners. The bass in question is fairly healthy overall.
1. The bass bar was a monolithic type.
2. The conversion date is not known
3. All the maple has air brushed enhanced figure
4. The bass bar will of course have to be replaced
5. The top grads are 9mm at the post area to 5.5mm at most of the flanks.
6. The back is roughly the same 9mm along the center joint to 5.5-6mm at flanks.
7. The neck width measures 42mm at the nut to 68mm at the end.
8. The neck is a dove tail type joint.
9. A low “B” is what has been suggested.
I am doing this to perform repairs that I do not feel comfortable doning for customers but mainly for the love of the trade. I will try to post some pics but this is new to me so bear with me.
Questions
1. Should I leave the top and back thickness as is?
2. Should I go thru a scroll graft to increase width and change to mortis type neck joint?
I should also say that I have done cello scroll grafts so I am not afraid to do this.
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  #4  
Old 04-01-2012, 12:17 AM
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Default well..

5-string?

From looking at the few pictures you are showing me and without any actual measurements of the bass other than the 3/4 size, I can't see why you would pursue this as a 5-string when the neck is a 4-string size.

With comfortable measurements for playing, the strings at the Nut should be spaced from 9-10 mm on average center to center. I have seen basses at 11 and 12mm as well but that is what I called wide. I think 42 mm across is about average without actually measuring anything. I will however measure MY 5-string Hofner that was made AS a 5-string with a wide neck and fingerboard.

Now, bass wise, in USA 5s are rare, very rare. The vast majority of players going low use a C-extension of one type or another. In Europe, 5s are more popular but to the up and coming players, the C-extension is becoming more and more accepted over the 5-string bass.

So, why take a 3/4 bass or minimal construction and re-work it into a 5 string that might not be big enough to carry that low string.

Can we see the Top inside and outside as well as all the other angles of the bass in and out?
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  #5  
Old 04-01-2012, 06:26 PM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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I'm in agreement with Ken, plus this: your bass appears to have inadequate overstand for modern playing. If you do decide to make it a 5-string, you may want to do so in a reversible way. Installing a wide fingerboard would be my first choice (after re-setting the neck).
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Old 04-02-2012, 04:35 PM
Mike Weems Mike Weems is offline
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Wow thank you for all the great suggestions. I really appreciate you helping me think through this problem. After reading the last 2 posts it sounds like I should restore this bass to its original four string status. As I said in my last post I acquired this instrument in its current state. I am not wedded to the 5 string status. Your idea to install a “C” extension sounds quite good. Here are some dimensions that may be helpful.


1. Nominal body length 1103mm
2. The string length is roughly 41.5inchs(1054.10mm)
3. Width of upper bout 508mm
4. Width @ C bout 363mm
5. Width @ lower bout 637mm
6. Rib depth @ end block 197mm
7. Rib depth @ back cut 187mm
8. Rib depth @ neck block 157mm
9. F-stop 585mm
10. Chin of neck to heel 370mm
11. Neck length from frnt edge of nut to end 442mm
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  #7  
Old 04-02-2012, 04:49 PM
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Default Metric?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Weems View Post
Wow thank you for all the great suggestions. I really appreciate you helping me think through this problem. After reading the last 2 posts it sounds like I should restore this bass to its original four string status. As I said in my last post I acquired this instrument in its current state. I am not wedded to the 5 string status. Your idea to install a “C” extension sounds quite good. Here are some dimensions that may be helpful.


1. Nominal body length 1103mm
2. The string length is roughly 41.5inchs(1054.10mm)
3. Width of upper bout 508mm
4. Width @ C bout 363mm
5. Width @ lower bout 637mm
6. Rib depth @ end block 197mm
7. Rib depth @ back cut 187mm
8. Rib depth @ neck block 157mm
9. F-stop 585mm
10. Chin of neck to heel 370mm
11. Neck length from frnt edge of nut to end 442mm
Please, inches, Very few people use metric in USA. Of those that do, divide by 2.54 to have a handle on it. 41.5", that is one we all understand. The rest require a calculator for me.
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Old 04-02-2012, 05:18 PM
Mike Weems Mike Weems is offline
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1. Nominal body length 43.5“
2. The string length is roughly 41.5inchs(1054.10mm)
3. Width of upper bout 19 7/8”
4. Width @ C bout 14 ¾”
5. Width @ lower bout 25”
6. Rib depth @ end block 7 5/8”
7. Rib depth @ back cut 7 3/8”
8. Rib depth @ neck block 6 ¼”
9. F-stop 23”
10. Chin of neck to heel 14.5”
11. Neck length from frnt edge of nut to end 17 3/8”
Sorry about that.
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  #9  
Old 04-02-2012, 07:01 PM
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Lightbulb well

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Weems View Post
1. Nominal body length 43.5“
2. The string length is roughly 41.5inchs(1054.10mm)
3. Width of upper bout 19 7/8”
4. Width @ C bout 14 ¾”
5. Width @ lower bout 25”
6. Rib depth @ end block 7 5/8”
7. Rib depth @ back cut 7 3/8”
8. Rib depth @ neck block 6 ¼”
9. F-stop 23”
10. Chin of neck to heel 14.5”
11. Neck length from frnt edge of nut to end 17 3/8”
Sorry about that.
This is more then the basics but, it is a 3/4 and sound is an issue for 5s. I have a 3/4 (maybe) that is a 5er from birth and it is quite a boomer but, born as such. Compare the numbers to your measurements. http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/5string/

Still, if this was a 4-string and I wanted or needed to convert a bass to a 5er, this would NOT be the one to convert.

I have a huge English bass, born as a 4 and recently converted to a 5er and then not long after back to a 4. It's an organ and stands up to any bass. This would be the size you want for a 5er. http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/tarr/

For reference, here's a bass we converted from a 4; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/mystery2/

And here's one that came in as a 5 and sounded even better with the B lifted off; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/euro5/

Both were fairly new basses antiqued to look older. The sound was there. If your bass is a commercial sized 3/4 and made and intended to be a 4-string, keep it as a 4-string. Not all basses do well as 5s. Many of the old 4s were born as 3s and I have and have had many of those as well. 4-strings is the norm' so stay with that and play it safe.
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Old 04-02-2012, 08:27 PM
Mike Weems Mike Weems is offline
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Default

Thanks again for all the info. I will do just that
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Old 04-03-2012, 06:52 PM
Robert J Spear Robert J Spear is offline
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Unless I misread Mike's original post, the bass has already been converted. Yes? No? To answer the original question, width at the nut should be 51 - 52 (I'm European-trained so I'm a millimeters guy) at the least. Might be tough to graft a wider neck on the old scroll. Ken's right in that modern string technology allows the string spacing to be narrower at the nut, which will work to your favor if you convert the bass. I also suspect that making the fingerboard extend over the sides of the neck is one of those ideas that probably sounds better than it looks or feels. Can't say for sure because I've never done it. I think you might be seeing a negative domino effect setting up here.

In my opinion, for whatever it's worth, the body at 1100 is getting pretty small to reinforce a low B. Most worrisome will be the additional downward pressure on the top caused by modern steel strings. Top grads at 9 are about as low as I would dare go with the extra string pressure unless you know the wood well.

Five-string basses are alive and well in pockets in this country, but you'll probably sell 100 4-stringers for every five-stringer. I also think a number of players are getting tired of the problems with C-extensions, and my solution is to play a bass tuned in fifths. How great an idea this is I won't elaborate on any further since I'm still playing in fourths on the increasingly rare times that I actually play any more.
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Old 04-04-2012, 08:43 PM
Mike Weems Mike Weems is offline
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Thanks Robert that just reinforcess all the info that Ken and Arrnold came up with and Yes this bass had indeed already been converted. I will take it back to a 4-string. When it is complete I will come back to this thread and post some pics.
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Old 03-02-2013, 09:49 PM
Mike Weems Mike Weems is offline
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Default Thanks for the help 5 back to 4

Insrument come out great thanks again for the help. I have a flat back in horrific condition and not sure of it's time and origin. I will post photos soon.
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  #14  
Old 03-02-2013, 10:38 PM
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Lightbulb ok..

Now that I see a better pic of the top with the purfling going around, combined with that round back, I think this is possibly a Saxon Bass more so than Czech. Similar basses were made on both sides of the border but with that Purfling, I have to go with German. That purfling was done to imitate the French basses of the late 19th and more so early 20th century. I don't recall seeing any of that from the Bohemian side of the border. That is more a German bass than Bohemian with that Top and purfling style.

I would like to see the outside of the back, the upper half with the neck button. That will confirm my theory.
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Old 03-03-2013, 09:56 AM
Mike Weems Mike Weems is offline
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Default Wow Thanks

Thank you so much for the info. These are the best photos that I have of this bass concerning the button. The bass was purchased just as I was finishing it so I do not have it in the shop at this time. The costumer that purchased it is coming back in, as she wants a different flavor string than I provided. I will get better close of the back at that time.

P.S. I found this forum to be invaluable.
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  #16  
Old 03-03-2013, 11:24 AM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Mike Weems View Post
Thank you so much for the info. These are the best photos that I have of this bass concerning the button. The bass was purchased just as I was finishing it so I do not have it in the shop at this time. The costumer that purchased it is coming back in, as she wants a different flavor string than I provided. I will get better close of the back at that time.

P.S. I found this forum to be invaluable.
Mike, I have what I need here to see it. The Back is not purfled around like the top. Some basses are same front and back and some not. Still, this looks like typical German work from Saxony (Markneukirchen, Klingenthal or Dresden) or Berlin, not Czech.
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Old 03-03-2013, 05:45 PM
Mike Weems Mike Weems is offline
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Default German Bass

That's great. I'll be able to pass that along to the new owner. I will be starting a new thread for a flat back in the next few days. It came to me from the same source and I need help identifing it's origan and time period. I was told it is German circa 1890's but I'm not so sure.
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