Thinning a thick ?

[Adrian Levi]

Sticking to the general theme of 'wood removal' , I'm wondering what the effects on tone are when it comes to thinning down a thick neck . Also is it ever done to take fingerboard wood away to improve general timbre ( I dont mean fingerboard dressing ) ?

[Adrian Levi]

Topic was meant to have read / THINNING A THICK NECK ?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Adrian Levi

Sticking to the general theme of 'wood removal' , I'm wondering what the effects on tone are when it comes to thinning down a thick neck . Also is it ever done to take fingerboard wood away to improve general timbre ( I dont mean fingerboard dressing ) ?

For me, the neck must be comfortable and strong. On all major restorations I have a CF Graphite Bar/s put in for added strength. Then, a full thick fingerboard goes on.

Thick or thin necks or FBs do sound different. I don't think you can make a Bass that much better changing things here in the neck area. You can make THAT bass sound a little better or sized to your comfort but not everyone feels the same on what comfort is.

However, I have been told many times over that the basses I have here in stock are the best set-up feeling basses 'as a group' than any other shop they have been to. Why do I hear that? Because the necks are not thin or thick, the fingerboards are thick and well dressed and the necks are for the most part, reinforced. The right fb curve and the right bridge arch for easy bowing, good spacing at the bridge and nut, nut height near zero under the strings, camber about 1mm or so, the right neck to body angle, overstand, tailpiece to bridge angle, etc, etc, etc.. all part of what makes a bass feel and play good.. besides a good bass.

[Adrian Levi]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

For me, the neck must be comfortable and strong. On all major restorations I have a CF Graphite Bar/s put in for added strength. Then, a full thick fingerboard goes on.

Thick or thin necks or FBs do sound different. I don't think you can make a Bass that much better changing things here in the neck area. You can make THAT bass sound a little better or sized to your comfort but not everyone feels the same on what comfort is.

However, I have been told many times over that the basses I have here in stock are the best set-up feeling basses 'as a group' than any other shop they have been to. Why do I hear that? Because the necks are not thin or thick, the fingerboards are thick and well dressed and the necks are for the most part, reinforced. The right fb curve and the right bridge arch for easy bowing, good spacing at the bridge and nut, nut height near zero under the strings, camber about 1mm or so, the right neck to body angle, overstand, tailpiece to bridge angle, etc, etc, etc.. all part of what makes a bass feel and play good.. besides a good bass.

Thats interesting about the graphite bar ! Do you ever consider using light tuners for sound improvement or would you consider it overkill ? Some say that the lighter tuners and or wooden string pegs have a positive impact on sound .... but I guess perhaps thats bordering the obsessive !

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Adrian Levi

Thats interesting about the graphite bar ! Do you ever consider using light tuners for sound improvement or would you consider it overkill ? Some say that the lighter tuners and or wooden string pegs have a positive impact on sound .... but I guess perhaps thats bordering the obsessive !

When you have basses like I do in the top of my collection which are the main ones I use personally, Tuners to me are hardware, NOT tone enhancers. If your tuners are paper, then they wont work. If they are a pound of lead, they will hurt the sound. Other than that, as long as they work well and look nice on the bass combined, they are the tuners for that bass for ITS LIFE with me!

With some basses, people think they can change a dozen things and turn a factory bass into a Montagnana (a great and expensive Italian bass, if you can find one. Only a few known in the world). Guess what? If you want the sound of a Montagnana, buy one! Changing all the parts wont help all that much.

I think that going moderate all around with set-up issues (not too light and not to heavy) you will get out of the bass what the bass can deliver by how it's made and within the condition it's in.

Sometimes the time, effort and expense might be better spent on shopping for a different bass. Too much money and time is wasted tying to get out of a bass what will never be there. If the components on your bass are junk, then improvements are possible. If so, is the bass any good to begin with? Is it worth the trouble to upgrade parts or, was it better in the long run to have gotten a different bass?

I often tell people to leave it alone, save up your money, sell the bass you don't like, and get one that you do like. Usually, only the guys selling the parts win. Like the Lawyers in a lawsuit. The lawyers do well and have lunch together while the people suing or getting sued usually suffer in the long run.

Make good decisions to start with. That will save you money in the long run..

[Thomas Erickson]

I've wondered from time to time - with graphite in the neck, what happens when the bass takes a hit that otherwise would have broken the neck? What's the next-in-line for destruction?

As for thinning a neck - I think it's most often done when people think a smaller neck will somehow be easier to play or more suitable for a small person. IMO in most cases it's just a technique issue and the instrument is the scapegoat.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Thomas Erickson

I've wondered from time to time - with graphite in the neck, what happens when the bass takes a hit that otherwise would have broken the neck? What's the next-in-line for destruction?

As for thinning a neck - I think it's most often done when people think a smaller neck will somehow be easier to play or more suitable for a small person. IMO in most cases it's just a technique issue and the instrument is the scapegoat.

A bass neck usually breaks at its weakest point. That would be just under the scroll at the end of the fingerboard for the most part. Graphite wont help as it's IN the neck and not at the break point.

On thin necks, we have to look at playing the bass and not gripping it like a bat. Thinner necks are weaker. They bend forward from the string pull and pull the fingerboard with it creating the effect of extra camber under the strings when in fact it's really a weak neck. Extra camber makes the string tension feel tighter and harder to play. In this case, a stronger and thicker neck would be easier to play because it bends less and holds its intended camber better. The graphite allows you to have a normal thicknesses neck but stiffer in resistance. Remember, to put graphite in, you have to take wood out.

I started putting graphite in the Smith basses in 1980. Having played thousands of thinner/longer/weaker Electric basses in my shop with graphite inlaid neck I can tell you what it does. We/I also have a special technique of putting it in which I cannot share. Also, our rods are custom
made to order and not off the shelf of from a catalog.

Graphite CF will help a well made neck. In our usage, it is not intended to correct bad neck, only improve a good one.

[Thomas Erickson]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

A bass neck usually breaks at its weakest point. That would be just under the scroll at the end of the fingerboard for the most part. Graphite wont help as it's IN the neck and not at the break point.

The two basses that I have seen that received a hit (after a rod was installed) enough to do damage, one the neck had a small crack, the other came loose at the button and on the sides of the heel slightly-both were very minor repairs.

Seems to me like in the case of a good strong neck joint then that the brunt of an impact is going to be focused on the point of the neck where it's already weakest. Does anybody think that maybe a neck without graphite, one that can absorb and evenly distribute shock, might actually be safer in the case of an otherwise well made and healthy bass?

And as for the stiffness, if the neck is thick enough, isn't it going to be stiff enough to not deflect under tension

I don't mean to be negative about it or anything, I just tend to have my doubts about graphite being able to improve a nice thick neck made from good maple; I can certainly see how it would be nice in a bass guitar neck though!

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Thomas Erickson

Seems to me like in the case of a good strong neck joint then that the brunt of an impact is going to be focused on the point of the neck where it's already weakest. Does anybody think that maybe a neck without graphite, one that can absorb and evenly distribute shock, might actually be safer in the case of an otherwise well made and healthy bass?

And as for the stiffness, if the neck is thick enough, isn't it going to be stiff enough to not deflect under tension

I don't mean to be negative about it or anything, I just tend to have my doubts about graphite being able to improve a nice thick neck made from good maple; I can certainly see how it would be nice in a bass guitar neck though!

If you ever experienced the exact same bass before and after having the Graphite rod/s put in you might have a different viewpoint.

Several of my Double basses that now have CF graphite rods in them didn't before and now they do. Making or leaving a neck thicker or too thick to play comfortably just to keep it strong is the not the way to go in my opinion.

There is more than one kind and one grade within each method of making these rods. There is also more then one way to install them. Not all Graphite is created equal. Not all neck mods with graphite are equal between luthiers either.

I discuss the method of putting the Rods in with the few lutheirs that do this and on my basses, they are done just about the same way I would do it.

I prefer the Graphite rods in all my new or restored necks and I have had quite a few pass thru my inventory in the last few years.

On what's best for shock when you bang your bass, nothing. Don't bang the bass!

[Thomas Erickson]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

If you ever experienced the exact same bass before and after having the Graphite rod/s put in you might have a different viewpoint.

Several of my Double basses that now have CF graphite rods in them didn't before and now they do. Making or leaving a neck thicker or too thick to play comfortably just to keep it strong is the not the way to go in my opinion.

There is more than one kind and one grade within each method of making these rods. There is also more then one way to install them. Not all Graphite is created equal. Not all neck mods with graphite are equal between luthiers either.

I discuss the method of putting the Rods in with the few lutheirs that do this and on my basses, they are done just about the same way I would do it.

I prefer the Graphite rods in all my new or restored necks and I have had quite a few pass thru my inventory in the last few years.

On what's best for shock when you bang your bass, nothing. Don't bang the bass!

I'll take your word that the graphite make a tonal improvement, since as you say, I haven't had the chance to compare a bass before/after the modification.

So you're of the opinion that in order to make a wood neck structurally sound, it has to be too thick in terms of playability? And also that it isn't then an issue of technique on the player's part? For the majority of my years playing I've worked to drive my left hand with everything but the thumb, which I think most will agree is the logical and healthy approach, and I find that the thickness of a neck had little impact on the playability of a bass. On the other hand, I find a particular, distinct lack of tone and response in thin-necked bass that worsens as the necks get thinner, and also that thin necks are rather fatiguing to play for long periods.

As for not banging the bass... well, maybe that works for the player who never takes the instrument out of the house, but last I check most "working" bass get beat pretty well. And a broken bass means no pay+repair bill...

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Thomas Erickson

I'll take your word that the graphite make a tonal improvement, since as you say, I haven't had the chance to compare a bass before/after the modification.

So you're of the opinion that in order to make a wood neck structurally sound, it has to be too thick in terms of playability? And also that it isn't then an issue of technique on the player's part? ...........

No, that's not exactly what I said. I said (I think) that making a neck thich FOR stability is not the best way and too thick can be harder to play.

How many species or varieties of maple Neck woods have you felt on basses?

Some are harder than others. Some are too soft period. Thin fingerboards are often either the sign of a weak neck that needed dressing after dressing from the neck warping under it or will allow the neck to forward bow over time.

I have had and do have basses with necks that are thicker than I personally like. Unless it's my personal 'not for sale' bass, I leave it alone if it's within the guidelines. If too thick period, it will be carved down to a normal size neck.

[Thomas Erickson]

Got it!

I don't think there's anything wrong with shaping a neck to suit one's preference, since it's not such an integral part of the instrument; same for adding graphite or whatever. My only concern, really, is with the addition of graphite increasing the odds of major damage to the top block etc. when (not if) the bass sustains trauma... Even if it's more likely that the neck breaks at the top, well, again, it's still just a neck.

[Thomas Erickson]

Originally Posted by wayne holmes

I still maintain that a CF rod is a must to properly fix a broken neck- I would vote that all basses come with them already installed when they are made.

The proper fix for a broken neck is a neck graft; a new bass, properly made with a good maple neck and thick ebony fingerboard doesn't need any reinforcement to be structurally sound - your post doesn't really make sense.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Thomas Erickson

The proper fix for a broken neck is a neck graft; a new bass, properly made with a good maple neck and thick ebony fingerboard doesn't need any reinforcement to be structurally sound - your post doesn't really make sense.

The Graphite will even the tone out and help your neck stay straight and the FB last longer.

The Basses I am talking about would never get repairs to the the neck other than a temporary fix. That would cheapen and devalue the bass if left that way. These basses I am referring to are in the upper range of mid 5 to 6 figures in price.

I have over 40 years of playing basses and carrying them around. I have bumped and banged my share of basses. Never once did a neck break, with or without graphite. When a bass falls the playing area of the neck is the strongest usually which is also supported by an ebony fingerboard and a thick one if it's my bass. Scroll breaks are far more common than neck breaks and block area breaks are the second most damaged area I see on old basses. It depends on the fall. Graphite is not the problem here, people are.

[Thomas Erickson]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

The Graphite will even the tone out and help your neck stay straight and the FB last longer.

I can see where the graphite might keep the neck from bowing, and prevent the FB from needing dressing because of it.

I don't think the graphite is going to keep the neck from twisting though; it seems to me like it might even contribute to it.

How exactly does adding graphite to the neck "even out" the tone of the bass? Last I checked graphite isn't a tone wood, nor is whatever substance is used to glue it into the neck...

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Originally Posted by Thomas Erickson

How exactly does adding graphite to the neck "even out" the tone of the bass? Last I checked graphite isn't a tone wood, nor is whatever substance is used to glue it into the neck...

My take on it is this: When the neck is stiffer, it "wobbles" less and robs less energy from the corpus. The stiffer neck is less absorbent of vibration, and the energy of the plucked or bowed string does more good at the business end of the bass. I have observed this many times; not just when installing a carbon fiber reinforcement, but also when replacing a mushy neck and/or fingerboard. The result for the player appears to be a bit more power, easier response, and more evenness of tone.

[Pino Cazzaniga]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

My take on it is this: When the neck is stiffer, it "wobbles" less and robs less energy from the corpus. The stiffer neck is less absorbent of vibration, and the energy of the plucked or bowed string does more good at the business end of the bass. I have observed this many times; not just when installing a carbon fiber reinforcement, but also when replacing a mushy neck and/or fingerboard. The result for the player appears to be a bit more power, easier response, and more evenness of tone.

I see. Did you notice any change on wolfness?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

No change.