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Old 07-06-2007, 05:48 PM
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Default Best mini cardioid condenser for DB

I just picked up an Acoustic Image Coda R series III a couple of days ago and have already gigged twice with it. It's a fantastic piece of gear, IMO. I used it outdoors on the 4th combined with my Ampeg PB212H cab which boosts it from 400W to 500W and I was able to run it half Master and half gain on the channel. It was quite loud with no feedback. The pick-up I used was the K&K bassmax with no pre-amp. I was able to run the EQ flat.

I suppose that pick-up is perhaps as good as any;- I've never heard a pick-up that was substantially better, just slightly different in one way or another. Still, I want something that amplifies the acoustic sound of my bass now that I have an amplifier that will easily allow microphones.

So I am going to tread into that quagmire of miniature condenser microphones. The Acoustic Image has phantom power, so it makes it possible to use those mic systems that either will work without a separate pre-amp or have the pre-amp powered by the phantom power so it doesn't need a battery (I am particularly averse to battery powered gear). Also, I don't need a blender because the Coda has 2 channels and I can blend on the amp very easily, so blenders aren't a necessary part of my strategy.

I didn't expect to find so many mics that could be used this way, so I need some help figuring out which is most useful. The ones I have found that qualify for use in this fashion are very diverse in price, but generally have fairly similar specs, although some appear to have more low end sensitivity than others. I'm willing to spend more money if it really makes a difference in sound quality. Keep in mind I use a 5-string DB and need some sensitivity down to 30 Hz. Most of the ones here will accomplish that by proximity effect if no other way, and the cheapest option seems to have the most low end down to even 10Hz, although I see that much low frequency sensitivity as a potential problem.

Below are some that I am considering and I welcome suggestions on the pros and cons of these, or other ones I might have missed, from anyone who has experience with miniature condensers that mount on the instrument. I'm interested most in getting a much, much better sound than any pickup produces without getting feedback at a small venue volume level. I think I listed them in descending price order or close to that. The top one sells on the web for around $1500, and the bottom one for a little more than $100. Except for the AKG, they are cardioid pattern. I'm not sure how to describe the AKG 411 pattern since it is a different type of design. Anyway, post your experiences positive or negative with any of these or others that are similar in function and design.

DPA 4021 (pre is built into the capsule, but amazingly small despite that)

AMT SB25 (pre is box that can run on phantom)

SD Systems LCM 100 XLR (pre is box that can run on phantom)

Audio Technica ATM 350 (pre is box that can run on phantom)

Shure Beta 98 H/C (pre is box that can run on phantom)

K&K Golden Bullet mic XLR (pre is box that can run on phantom)

Audio Technica Pro 35 (pre is box that can run on phantom)

AKG C 411 (this is a surface mount type contact condenser mic, it is not a piezo) (pre is box that can run on phantom)

Last edited by David Powell; 07-07-2007 at 08:07 PM.
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Old 07-26-2007, 08:26 PM
Bob Branstetter Bob Branstetter is offline
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Default AMT S25b

I've been using an AMT S25B with a tailpiece mount for a couple of years now and have no complaints with this setup. I currently mix it with a Fishman Full Circle and usually have a mix of roughly 50-50 or maybe 60-40 (AMT to FC). By using this mix I can get plenty of volume for most jobs out of my Series III Coda and still sound "acoustic". On quiet jobs, I sometimes just use the mic alone. I've never had a problem picking up drums or other instruments with the AMT. I position the mic right on the center seam just below the end of the fingerboard. I use a pair of women's hair ties attached to the bridge legs to center the goose-neck and minimize movement of the mic head. With this setup, I have no problem keeping the mic positioned 1/8" or closer to the top. I did not like the AMT stock mounting system that clamps to the bouts. With that setup, you have to attach it for the job and then unattach it when you put on your case. A real pain! I designed the tailpiece mount so that the cord is detachable, but I leave the mic on my bass at all times. I keep the black box (preamp) attached to the top of my Coda with Velcro. I once did an A-B in a recording studio against a vintage Neumann U67. The Neumann did sound better, but the (very experienced) engineer said he thought that I could take the AMT into any studio in the country and wouldn't have to apologize for it.
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Old 08-02-2007, 12:51 PM
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Audix ADX20i. The regular model hasa cardoid pattern, but I prefer the hypercardoid model, which is less prone to feedback.
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Old 08-08-2007, 12:14 AM
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Well, this thread didn't take off probably because I first posted it in the wrong place and then I reposted it and it said moved, and well, it was confusing I think. So after several weeks, and probably the day before or maybe even the hour before Bob Branstetter posted about the AMT, I ordered a mini-condenser off of the list after I found a supplier. But don't let that stop anyone from posting about any mic on or off the list. I will post again about the mic I ordered as soon as the midget arrives, hopefully in a few days. Thanks Bob and Jonas for contributing. Any mini-condenser favorites that you have and care to talk about, I am all ears....
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Old 08-08-2007, 09:01 AM
Eric Hochberg Eric Hochberg is offline
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Default Audio Technica Pro 35

Just played a gig with Patricia Barber at the Green Mill in Chicago and the club has recently purchased one of these as a "house" bass mic. While I couldn't hear it from the bandstand (it was going solely through the PA mains and I was also using a pickup and amp) the very talented soundman told me he is happy with it.
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Old 09-21-2007, 11:19 AM
Eric Hochberg Eric Hochberg is offline
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Default Correction

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg View Post
Just played a gig with Patricia Barber at the Green Mill in Chicago and the club has recently purchased one of these as a "house" bass mic. While I couldn't hear it from the bandstand (it was going solely through the PA mains and I was also using a pickup and amp) the very talented soundman told me he is happy with it.
I posted this and have since discovered that the mic I thought was a Audio Technica Pro 35 is actually an AT ATM35, discontinued model.

Sorry for the error.
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Old 08-08-2007, 12:05 PM
Greg Clinkingbeard Greg Clinkingbeard is offline
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I played Bob Branstetter's bass at a jam session last weekend and thought the sound was very nice. Due to the proximity to the drummer's ride cymbal the mix was less mike and more FC, but he had a really warm, natural tone with plenty of wood and air. The tailpiece mount for the AMT is an install it and forget about it thing. If I had an amp that would take it, and the cash, I would spring for it myself.
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Old 08-15-2007, 01:22 AM
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OK, I've had this thing long enough now to comment and I've used it in the worst room (acoustically) that I normally gig in as well as in a few rehearsal situations. I bit the bullet, went the distance, maxed it out as they say, and forked over for the DPA 4021 and it's fancy little shock mount bracket. The worst thing is that I have no direct basis for comparison, except something like a dynamic mic stuck behind the TP or perhaps one of my cheap condensers that needs to be on a boom stand. I almost feel like I should get that Audix, Audio-Technica, or something a lot less expensive to see how much difference in sound there really is so I can confirm what I paid for. I suppose I could A-B it with my MXL 991 on a mic stand just to hear something else, but I am sure these would be worlds apart.

Some of its' "quality" is less tangible and probably not something appreciated on a A-B listening test such as the fine callibration that makes this one of the microphones that is good enough to use for scientific sound measurement purposes (of course when do most players need that?). Then there is the material and quality of construction of the the unit. Even though the wire is very thin, it does not feel flimsy. And the housing has a "heft" for its' size that confirms that it is mostly metal and probably no plastic anywhere in the capsule. And it has better humidity resistance and durability as well as a tolerance for higher sound pressure levels and the nearest to a flat response of anything I've heard. So there might be some quality in the package that is pure durability, and some that is just tighter adherence to performance specifications. The fact that the pre-amp is internal to the housing of such a small capsule would appear to be the main premium feature that separates this from other fine mics like the AMT.

I was looking for a tiny mic I could just plug into a phantom power source and not need an intermediary pre-amp box. I think the DPA is very rare in this respect, if not a bit precious because of it. It really sounds great to my ears. My bass only louder? I don't know if that can be used to describe what comes from a mic. But it is the first time that I felt I was really hearing my instrument amplified well.

Feedback rejection is better than I expected, also. I can stand right in front of my AI combo and at the "just before feedback point", it is just as clean there as behind or off to the side. The worst position for feedback seems to be at about 45 degrees and to one side. On the safe side, I am able to run the channel at about 9:00 o'clock with the master at 12:00 o'clock. If I run the Ampeg 212H cab as extension, a bit out in front of my position, I can use the same gain settings and be much louder and still, no feedback. I am using the notch on the AI, and its' position is room dependent. It is loud enough this way that I don't need to blend in the piezo in most rooms I gig in. I'm thinking a bit of both might actually cut through the mix best so I still have some experimentation to do.

Nothing is perfect of course;- and with the DPA it is a small issue with the very precious mounting gadget. It has a clamp for the afterlength that uses a foam strip sandwich that could be a bit beefier. The foam compresses too easily and the clamp is then subject to slipping. Other than that, the clamp works great and is a pretty finely machined and designed piece of work. One twist loosens the whole mechanism and one twist tightens it. It reminds me of the way the accessories for my Rolleiflex cameras were made;- really hard and precisely machined fine steel. It looks flimsy and under-engineered, but in practice, the metal parts are truly pared down to the minimum structure for a mounting clamp and once it is tightened into place, it is pretty solid. It just needs stiffer foam in the clamp part. I'll probably alter that and put thin cork in place of the foam. This is a bit frustrating because at the price of this mounting rig, DPA should have paid more attention to this. Still, it's the only flaw I could find in an otherwise really nicely made device.

I also want to hear how it records from this close in. Conventional wisdom is that recording is best from some point out in the room, but if close micining can sound good this might be the mic that does it. Live, it sounds so much nicer than a piezo that I will only use the piezo when volume is a big issue. Right now I am just enthralled with the smooth and even response.
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Old 09-05-2007, 03:06 PM
alec derian alec derian is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Bob Branstetter View Post
I did not like the AMT stock mounting system that clamps to the bouts. With that setup, you have to attach it for the job and then unattach it when you put on your case. A real pain! I designed the tailpiece mount so that the cord is detachable, but I leave the mic on my bass at all times. .
Hi Bob,

My AMT should be arriving in the mail very soon, and I would love to know exactly how you removed it from the standard mounting systems it comes with and perhaps some more about how you attached it to your Double Bass. Is it pretty easy? Maybe this will all be self-evident when I receive the mic. In any case, your experience would be much appreciated.
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Old 09-08-2007, 12:11 AM
Bob Branstetter Bob Branstetter is offline
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The mount I'm using now is the second design I've done. I made the first one from spruce. It was OK, but I really wanted one that I could adjust the angle of the mic coming out of the tailpiece. My current design was made from a short length of 2" Aluminum angle stock. The mic tube is attached with the same small plastic pipe clamps that are used to attach the jack on Gage Realist pickups. They are available in most any hardware store.

Before you start, keep in mind that this modification will void your AMT warranty. It's a good idea to use the mic a while with the factory clamp so that you can be absolutely sure that you have found the best location for the mic head. In my case that spot was located directly under the end of the fingerboard and on the center seam. I keep the mic less than 1/8" from the surface. While this may seem to be an unlikely place for the mic, it enables me to get a great sound and much more usable volume before getting into feedback. I've found that the area around the ff holes is one of the worst places for the mic as it gets a boomy sound and is more prone to feedback. This may not be the best spot for you, so experiment on jobs since it will always sound great in your living room.

Removing the AMT body clamp from the tube and goose-neck can be a challenge. Thanks to Marty Paglione (the designer of the mic) at AMT, I know that you must heat all of the tiny set screws with an alcohol lamp before removing them. If they are not well heated, the threads may strip when you try to remove them because they are installed with Loctite so they won't vibrate loose. As I remember, there are 3 different size set screws. I had to go to a machine supply shop to find the smallest Allen wrench since it is smaller than any of the "standard" sizes. I can look up the sizes for you if you need to know. Once the set screws are removed, you can slide off the clamp portion. If you aren't real good a soldering small components, having a friend who is good at it will make the job a lot easier. You must cut the cable coming out of the tube housing and install a Switchcraft EN3 plug on the mount if you wish to keep the wiring to the preamp the same as it is stock. Of course you will need a EN3 jack for the cord that you cut off. They are available from several mail order electronic supply houses. You could substitute a Mini XLR plug and jack for the EN3. That will do the same job and are probably be a little more sturdy than the plastic EN3 fittings.

I attached the adaptor to the back side of my tailpiece with cap screws (Allen head). By using an Allen Wrench, I can loosen or tighten the screws (after initial installation) without removing the tailpiece again. I tapped the threads into the tailpiece so that I could partially loosen them to remove the mic mount and then reattach it as many times as I might need in the future. As it turned out, it has been permanently attached to the tailpiece for the last two years.

I'm sure there are other things that I left out, but this should give you a pretty good idea of what my mount is all about. Feel free to PM me if you have any specific questions. FWIW, I also wrote about the mount over on the TalkBass forum.
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Last edited by Bob Branstetter; 09-08-2007 at 07:26 PM.
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  #11  
Old 09-09-2007, 06:00 PM
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Default Unusual Observation?

At a recent rehearsal using the DPA 4021 with the AI Coda, I observed a curious behavior concerning feedback or the lack thereof. I noted earlier that I could run the channel (notch filter on) with the gain at the 9:00 o'clock position and the master at 12:00 without feedback. What I observed at a recent rehearsal (concrete floor) and confirmed at a a gig today (carpeted plywood) is that I can boost the master gain well beyond 12:00 o'clock and still not get feedback while attempting to increase the channel gain beyond the 9:00 o'clock position results in immediate feedback.

This seems odd to me, but in any case, boosting the master now allows me to get very loud with the mic and still no hint of feedback or boomy resonance. Odd, but a welcome discovery. I'm guessing the behavior is the same with other mics as well? Has anyone else experienced this?
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Old 09-10-2007, 11:16 PM
Bob Branstetter Bob Branstetter is offline
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I've never tried running mine that way since I get plenty of volume with my S25B by leaving the master at "12 O'clock" and I frequently have the input level up around 11. Of course knob positions aren't really a good measure of the actual (db) output. The sensitivity of the input device (mic or pickup) can make all the difference in the world.

The AI Series III Coda manual says (on pg. 3):

"The input level controls the level of the signal at the input stage of the preamp. The master volume controls the output of the preamp (at the input of the power amp). Set the master control at "12 O'clock" and the input level at zero. The input level should then be used to control the overall output of the unit. The two controls are provided to allow independent control of the "house" volume and "stage" volume when the unit is used as a stage monitor with a connection to a house PA."

It would be interesting to see how your system responds without the notch filter on. I would assume that the notch filter would be on the preamp.
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