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Old 10-12-2009, 07:21 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Lightbulb Richard's Serious Thread About Getting Better on the Double Bass.

My life goal is to have my double bass playing down by the age of seventy five, eighteen years to go, and then I'll probably die. When I practise, or play a gig, I always try to isolate things that may be holding me back. Lately, for example, I've had a problem with not stopping the notes (with my left hand) firmly enough - this results in occasional squeaks and mainly occurs up the neck. I'm getting this one under control. I generally am pretty good at staying in tune, but there is one piece in my repertoire that I stray on - I'm presently dealing to this.
I also have a tendency to speed up. There, I've told you all my faults!
I think if someone asked me,
"Richard, what are, in your opinion, the most important aspects of double bass playing?"
I would reply,
"Obviously playing in tune and timing are vital. If you want people to like your playing, tone and phrasing come next."
I've just been reading an old book by Shinichi Suzuki (written in the 80s). He talks about how an infant learns language and how music can be learnt in the same way. He emphasizes practice - lots of it, and enjoying it. I probably do about an hour or two about every second or third day, and less on the other one or two, so my next endeavour will be to regularly go for three hours. Obviously what you practise is important.
So, this thread is a chance to talk about getting better on the big fiddle.
Don't be shy, have your say. Remember the old saying,
"Many hands make light work."

Last edited by Richard Prowse; 10-12-2009 at 07:23 PM. Reason: practice edit.
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  #2  
Old 10-12-2009, 08:04 PM
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Lightbulb moved..

I moved this here to the Music section of the DB rather than leaving it in the instrument section in which it started.
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Old 10-12-2009, 08:53 PM
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Cool how to improve?

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Originally Posted by Richard Prowse View Post
My life goal is to have my double bass playing down by the age of seventy five, eighteen years to go, and then I'll probably die. When I practise, or play a gig, I always try to isolate things that may be holding me back. Lately, for example, I've had a problem with not stopping the notes (with my left hand) firmly enough - this results in occasional squeaks and mainly occurs up the neck. I'm getting this one under control. I generally am pretty good at staying in tune, but there is one piece in my repertoire that I stray on - I'm presently dealing to this.
I also have a tendency to speed up. There, I've told you all my faults!
I think if someone asked me,
"Richard, what are, in your opinion, the most important aspects of double bass playing?"
I would reply,
"Obviously playing in tune and timing are vital. If you want people to like your playing, tone and phrasing come next."
I've just been reading an old book by Shinichi Suzuki (written in the 80s). He talks about how an infant learns language and how music can be learnt in the same way. He emphasizes practice - lots of it, and enjoying it. I probably do about an hour or two about every second or third day, and less on the other one or two, so my next endeavour will be to regularly go for three hours. Obviously what you practise is important.
So, this thread is a chance to talk about getting better on the big fiddle.
Don't be shy, have your say. Remember the old saying,
"Many hands make light work."
Ok, here's my take on it. The DB is a life study that you can never perfect all aspects of it. That being the case, I suggest you have a teacher evaluate your playing and start you on the road to improving what you have first.

At the recent ISB in Pa. I asked two bass players (both better than me) to look at my playing and give me something to work on. I had sorts asked for a 'mini lesson'. The reason for the 'mini' is that I just wanted one or two thinks at most pointed out in my playing that needed to be improved.

I basically played an audition for each of them for a minute or so and then waited for a response. These are both pro Symphony players by the way.

What did they each tell me or give me to work on? Well, that's bassically a doctor/patient condiferntiality thing..

The point being.. I asked and I got some help. After watching some great players over the last few years I came to realize that there is no such thing as perfection. So, just enjoy yourself. The better you get, the better you wanna get.. It's kinda addictive..
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Old 10-13-2009, 12:25 AM
Dave Martin Dave Martin is offline
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Here's a question - I've seen a couple of the regulars talk about pitch issues; I know Ken discussed this as a problem when switching between several basses for gigs. I'd like to know how serious these issues are - are you talking about quarter tones, or just the sort of thing where you can 'think' a slightly flat note into tune by rolling a finger just a bit...

I know that whenever I can spend an hour or so just working on intonation, it audibly improves - especially when doing major position shifts. But when other work interferes with practice (as it can do for months at a time), I tend to slide into notes a lot more when I move up and down the neck.
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Old 10-13-2009, 03:59 AM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
What did they each tell me or give me to work on? Well, that's bassically a doctor/patient condiferntiality thing..
Ken, my dear friend, did you know that the national emblem of NZ is a silver fern? Maybe your two bass players were from Down here (NZ)!

It sounds a bit like we're both really saying the same thing - seek advice, practice hard and play for life. I take note on your advice of visiting a teacher - good point.
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Old 10-13-2009, 04:07 AM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Martin View Post
Here's a question - I've seen a couple of the regulars talk about pitch issues; I know Ken discussed this as a problem when switching between several basses for gigs. I'd like to know how serious these issues are - are you talking about quarter tones, or just the sort of thing where you can 'think' a slightly flat note into tune by rolling a finger just a bit...
Dave, my friend, I personally find that intonation, time, tone and phrasing are things that bite me if I don't pay attention to them. You don't have to be far out of tune to sound out of tune. My two basses are different sizes, but I think it's not too hard to readjust to the smaller one, which I don't play much at present. I guess it would be harder to use several different sized basses regularly. Intonation is by degrees. If someone is regularly a quarter tone out, well that's a problem - a sign that no listening is happening.
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Old 10-13-2009, 06:17 AM
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Cool talk about pitch..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Martin View Post
Here's a question - I've seen a couple of the regulars talk about pitch issues; I know Ken discussed this as a problem when switching between several basses for gigs. I'd like to know how serious these issues are - are you talking about quarter tones, or just the sort of thing where you can 'think' a slightly flat note into tune by rolling a finger just a bit...

I know that whenever I can spend an hour or so just working on intonation, it audibly improves - especially when doing major position shifts. But when other work interferes with practice (as it can do for months at a time), I tend to slide into notes a lot more when I move up and down the neck.
I can't tell you a specific measure of intonation issues. I can tell you this. When you pick up a bass and play a few regular licks and 'miss' either short or long on some of the notes, it's just plain out of tune. Playing the same bass even if the string length is the same, helps to play in tune with your hand and fingers knowing just where to go.

Currently I am playing only my Hart Bass as far as gigs and practice go. I do 'doodle' on the other basses for 'inventory testing' purposes but for actual playing, it's the Hart. The only exception is practicing at home on my 3/4 Shen/Gemunder which I have had since 1997.

Playing just one main bass makes a big difference to me ear. At home, I mainly just practice to learn the parts. I don't think all that much about intonation. It's fairly good on the Shen so I just concentrate on the music.
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Old 10-13-2009, 08:31 AM
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Brian Gencarelli Brian Gencarelli is offline
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Ear training is the key to improving intonation. Audiation, or internalizing pitch is the key to putting your finger in the right place. Think about a dartboard- the bullseye is the correct pitch. If you are not on the bullseye, how close are you? If you are playing an instrument without having a good intonation target it is like playing darts with your eyes closed. Someone will get hurt!!

Professional players make intonation mistakes, but very minute ones. Students miss by a mile. What is the key? Ear training. You must sing!

My other necessary intonation work is developing the right concept of intonation. Students don't listen for intonation the same way that people that have good intonation. Most times, if you ask a student to play a scale and they miss a note, they progressively get worse as they go up and down the scale. If they play an open string they may correct, but the whole of the scale is wrong.

People with good intonation listen to the intervallic relationship between tonic (the first degree of the scale) and the note they are playing. It doesn't matter if you miss one note, because the next can be in tune based on the relationship of that note to tonic. To practice this, I always have students use a drone when they play scales. It immediately snaps their pitch into place. I can hear that drone in my head and when I practice sometimes I will drone a pitch and sing the scale, or drone the pitch with my voice and play the scale.

Give it a try and let me know how it works for you.

Best,
Brian
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Old 10-13-2009, 02:04 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Originally Posted by Brian Gencarelli View Post
Give it a try and let me know how it works for you.
Brian, you can be assured that I'll be trying this. Thanks for the thoughts.
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Old 10-13-2009, 02:42 PM
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Cool also..

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Originally Posted by Richard Prowse View Post
Brian, you can be assured that I'll be trying this. Thanks for the thoughts.
Richard, if you can, find a community Orchestra that you can join. Trust me when I say this.. You will learn things that you would never imagined to try on the bass on your own. It will raise your DB playing awareness to a height you didn't know was there. The Orchestra Rep. is the way to learn more about your bass. That's assuming you haven't gone that route already.
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Old 10-13-2009, 08:44 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Richard, if you can, find a community Orchestra that you can join. Trust me when I say this.. You will learn things that you would never imagined to try on the bass on your own. It will raise your DB playing awareness to a height you didn't know was there. The Orchestra Rep. is the way to learn more about your bass. That's assuming you haven't gone that route already.
Thanks Ken, I've done the orchestra thing. I don't really have any interest in playing in a community orchestra. It's improvised music for me these days, but I understand your point. Playing those Bach cello suites gives one a wake up call too.
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Old 10-13-2009, 09:00 PM
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Originally Posted by Richard Prowse View Post
Thanks Ken, I've done the orchestra thing. I don't really have any interest in playing in a community orchestra. It's improvised music for me these days, but I understand your point. Playing those Bach cello suites gives one a wake up call too.
Richard, that's just my point. In improvised music you play what you want 'when' you want. In Orchestra music, you play what 'they' want, when they want and how fast they want. They and tem meaning the composers and conductors.

I am doing Mendelssohn's 4th (Italian) now. I just U-tubed it and holy xxxx. Triplets at 160 a beat. All over the Bass. Now that will put some hair on your bow. Actually, it's the left hand that goes to the Barber on that one.

Playing the Orchestra Rep. trains my hands to be so fast, I can't even see my own fingers move. It's just a blur sometimes but the notes keep flying out somehow.

I don't know what you got out of the Orchestra thing but for me, it's the ultimate workout. I will get only 3 rehearsals with the Orchestra and I have about a month to get it ready along with two other Pieces. Haydn's Farewell with a Bass solo at the end..
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Old 10-14-2009, 02:10 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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I hear you, my friend. I started my musical life as a violinist. I played in orchestras and graduated with an honours degree (all that seems another life time ago now). I've since played the bass in orchestras, though not big serious ones. I had my first bass lesson in 1976 and later took a few lessons with Harry Botham (ex LSO). I never had that many lessons on the bass - 'I'm formally self taught' to quote Jaco. I am eternally grateful for my classical training and would advise any youngster to get formal training, but I'm not interested in playing classical any more. I played an hour gig (to about eight people) last night. Just me and my bass - I called on a lot of skills and played pretty well (I think - I'm pretty honest with myself; after all I confess to having played some shockers in the past!).
Lately I've played with two excellent classical violinists - one plays in the NZSO and another was once concertmaster of the Tasmanian Symphony (I hope I've got that right). Both have beautiful tones and can read fly sh1t on a bathroom wall. The ex-TSO player runs a gypsy jazz band and has all her solos written out. I hadn't played with her for a long while, but was able to whistle along with her solos! The other guy played some jazz standards, in his repertoire, that consisted of him playing the tune about three times - no solos from anyone! In my humble opinion, both of these players were out of their depth when it came to playing a jazz style gig. All I'm saying is that there are two sides to the coin, both requiring a set of skills. The classical playing will only help the improvising player to a point - I don't remember Coltrane or Miles playing in many orchestras.
I'd better go, but I hope all is well in Perkasie my friend.
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Old 10-14-2009, 06:01 PM
Joel Larsson Joel Larsson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Brian Gencarelli View Post
You must sing!
I'll second that. My current teacher tells me to stop playing and punish myself every time I realise that I've stopped singing.

I'll go on for a bit about what my last six lessons (YES, it's that important):
Fix your hand shape. I always used to be able to play chromatic 5ths up and down the bass fairly well in tune, but now with this teacher I've noticed that it's just not that simple, because I didn't apply it to the rest of my playing. The ear is easily corrupted... and if your first position is to small between the 1st and 4th finger - which I was shocked to realise was my case - even if you make a perfect semitone shift up from say B to C, you're out of tune, because you were out of tune in the first place. Myself, I found out that even though I always considered my intonation to be 'good enough', on the G string I was consequently low on B and consequently I was still low after shifting to C. This I had gotten so used to that I considered them to be in tune. As a result, my 3rd pos shape was too big in order to reach D, which was usually rather well in tune thanks to the easy check with an open D. E with 4th finger was too high as my shape was still too big, and E with 1st finger was usually was too low - especially when coming down - for the very same reason. All this was integrated in my playing and in my ears.

A key, as Brian said, is to learn EXACTLY how an interval should sound. Playing with a droning note is nice because you learn where to 'place' your note, but what's probably even more important - as it is what's required of us - is to have a REALLY good idea of what a tempered scale or a perfectly pitched single interval should sound like, and here you may not have any help by that drone, as it might lead you into playing relatively in tune. Which we also have to be able to do. But there is a limit to the practical use of this kind of intonation.

A very good exercise is to play between two open strings, say D E F# G F# E D. Then you can use the open strings as reference points. If you listen properly to that open G, does it sound a bit too high? Then your hand shape is probably too small. Or if the D is sounding low, then the E was already high - and a high first finger in first position is something an awful lot of people do, A on the G string being a frequent problem note, especially when coming down. If you play this exercise, you shouldn't rely on checking the E against the A or E string to see if it's in tune; it can be done, yes, but the point is that you should acquire a perfect sense of where you have a perfect E in relation to the D.
This exercise can and should also be played in thumb pos, and you should also play D E F and D Eb F.

Another common fault is that the hand shape doesn't get small enough when you reach 3rd 4th and 5th pos. It's starting out surprisingly big down in ½ and 1st pos but then decreases surprisingly quickly. But, if you can fix the hand shapes, you'll be sure to improve every element of intonation including shifts.

This is the most important advice I can give you. It has really worked wonders with me during the past month.
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Old 10-14-2009, 07:45 PM
Dave Martin Dave Martin is offline
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Today (after playing for about an hour between shows), I realized that I REALLY need a new set of strings. Mine are no longer playing true notes...
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:41 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Dave Martin View Post
Today (after playing for about an hour between shows), I realized that I REALLY need a new set of strings. Mine are no longer playing true notes...
Dave, my friend, you can get them from music shops.
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Old 10-14-2009, 09:42 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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E. Joel, my friend, thanks for sharing your very good advice. When Dave gets some new strings he can try your exercises.

Last edited by Richard Prowse; 10-14-2009 at 09:42 PM. Reason: water
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:07 AM
Dave Martin Dave Martin is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Prowse View Post
E. Joel, my friend, thanks for sharing your very good advice. When Dave gets some new strings he can try your exercises.
Actually, I'm trying them now (and have been doing a variant of them for some months). Based on today's practice, it IS excellent advice, and I hope to do more with it. I'll be ordering the new strings tomorrow, and ideally, I'll be able to hear what I'm trying to do more successfully.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:28 AM
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Thumbs up ok..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Richard Prowse View Post
I hear you, my friend. I started my musical life as a violinist. I played in orchestras and graduated with an honours degree (all that seems another life time ago now). I've since played the bass in orchestras, though not big serious ones. I had my first bass lesson in 1976 and later took a few lessons with Harry Botham (ex LSO). I never had that many lessons on the bass - 'I'm formally self taught' to quote Jaco. I am eternally grateful for my classical training and would advise any youngster to get formal training, but I'm not interested in playing classical any more. I played an hour gig (to about eight people) last night. Just me and my bass - I called on a lot of skills and played pretty well (I think - I'm pretty honest with myself; after all I confess to having played some shockers in the past!).
Lately I've played with two excellent classical violinists - one plays in the NZSO and another was once concertmaster of the Tasmanian Symphony (I hope I've got that right). Both have beautiful tones and can read fly sh1t on a bathroom wall. The ex-TSO player runs a gypsy jazz band and has all her solos written out. I hadn't played with her for a long while, but was able to whistle along with her solos! The other guy played some jazz standards, in his repertoire, that consisted of him playing the tune about three times - no solos from anyone! In my humble opinion, both of these players were out of their depth when it came to playing a jazz style gig. All I'm saying is that there are two sides to the coin, both requiring a set of skills. The classical playing will only help the improvising player to a point - I don't remember Coltrane or Miles playing in many orchestras.
I'd better go, but I hope all is well in Perkasie my friend.
I hear you Richard. Thanks for filling me in a little more on tour past, musically speaking.

In that case, if all the skills are in line, playing out as much as possible is all I can suggest. Also, playing along with records (now it's CDs) always helped me. I enjoyed most with improv stuff using the old Bill Evans records. You can't get more loose and free than with Bill. Things like that if you are not out playing and just wanna practice would be good to do. Also, less lonely than just playing by yourself.
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Old 10-15-2009, 12:35 AM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Also, less lonely than just playing by yourself.
Thanks for your thoughts Ken.
By the way, I'm glad you said 'by' and not 'with'!
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