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Old 10-16-2007, 11:44 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Default Intuition vs Thinking

I've noticed over the years that I generally seem to know what the notes on my bass are going to sound like before I play them (I'm talking about when I'm starting a practice session). I've also noticed that, when I think about the notes, I get them wrong. I used to think that this was just that I didn't really know what the notes were going to sound like, but I think I've discovered the real answer. It comes down to 'intuition vs thinking'. I believe that I probably memorised the notes on my bass years ago and that I can always hear them... after all I can remember lots of phone numbers and the subtle differences between different faces. I can even remember things like smells. When my logical mind interferes, it brings with it a fear of failing and puts me into guessing mode. As long as I don't listen to my logical mind, I believe that I can hear the correct notes all the time. I know that when I finger my bass in my mind, it is very easy to hear all the intervals.
What I'm talking about is something that is at the heart of all good musical performance... trusting one's intuition.
A friend said,
"You need to flex your intuition muscle."
I'm quite excited about the steps I am taking in this area and would welcome your thoughts and experiences.
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Old 10-17-2007, 12:21 PM
JoeyNaeger JoeyNaeger is offline
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That sounds a lot like the ideas presented in Barry Greene's The Inner Game of Music. I haven't finished it yet, but the basis of the book is learning how to overcome your own mental blocks. Basically, it gives you a bunch of strategies to get out of your own way.
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Old 10-17-2007, 01:13 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by JoeyNaeger View Post
That sounds a lot like the ideas presented in Barry Greene's The Inner Game of Music. I haven't finished it yet, but the basis of the book is learning how to overcome your own mental blocks. Basically, it gives you a bunch of strategies to get out of your own way.
Yes! I read that book several times. It was great!
I remembered it as I was writing the above post. I guess that I'm in a moment of finally putting some ideas to the test. I also remember Jerry Coker writing about musical memory in a book he wrote about jazz. I think it was called "Improvising Jazz". He came to NZ in the early eighties.
I'm writing this in a bit of a hurry so my thoughts may come out a bit scrambled but, I'm in a process of trying to discover right now... clearing my head about what I actually hear. I'm one of those people who suffers, at times, from self doubt. I see other musicians who never seem to get phased... maybe they just put up a good front? I think that confidence about what one is actually hearing would go a long way towards improving performance. My thinking is that I'm putting clouds in front of what I already hear... yes, sounds like Barry Greene's ideas that he got from 'The Inner Game of Tennis."
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Old 10-17-2007, 06:50 PM
Nick Hart Nick Hart is offline
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As far as physically playing, your intuition and muscle memory comes first. Playing should become second nature, and a good ****ogy to this is walking up steps. If you are just walking up them and not thinking you're fine, but as soon as you start concentrating on doing it and worry about hitting each step, you fall.
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Old 10-17-2007, 11:48 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Originally Posted by Nick Hart View Post
As far as physically playing, your intuition and muscle memory comes first. Playing should become second nature, and a good ****ogy to this is walking up steps. If you are just walking up them and not thinking you're fine, but as soon as you start concentrating on doing it and worry about hitting each step, you fall.
Well... is it really that difficult to walk up steps when you think about it? I know what you're trying to say. I'm really talking about our ability to remember pitches. Someone with absolute pitch can obviously remember pitches really quickly... or perhaps this person just hears the colours straight away. When I was young(er) I played in the Wellington Youth Orchestra (violin). I was pretty impressionistic at this time and felt privileged to be in this orchestra... I think I was really sucking in the whole experience! Now. at 55, I still vividly remember the sound of the A440 on the grand piano that the oboe tuned to. This makes me think that my 'channels' were really open at this time and that the 'A' was burnt into my memory... I always seem to get the 'A' sound in my head when I think of that grand piano (I can still see it sitting in the rehearsal room that the NZSO also used at this time). The only time I get it wrong is either when my intellect butts in or when I try to impress someone. I feel that, if I can listen 'honestly', I can always hear that note.
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Old 10-24-2007, 02:30 PM
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David Powell David Powell is offline
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My intuition is that I've never really thought about this particular issue. I probably need to read that book.

Years ago, myself and 3 amateur musicians, one actually a bit more accomplished that the others started an improv quartet without really meaning to. We weren't consciously starting a band. We just started recording. We didn't talk about any musical parameters such as key, time signature or any of that. We just played the tracks for the recordings in one take each on an old 4 track Teac machine (reel to reel). What we produced was quite startling even to us. Not only did the recordings sound planned, but we found our improvisations nearly impossible to reproduce when we tried. Since those initial experiments the same four musicians have continued the experiments regularly, but not frequently. We extended it to performing live pretty early on and even to using instruments that we were unfamiliar with. Currently I am working in a trio configuration that largely works the same way. It is amazing what can be accomplished when the mind is free of expectation. Most of the musicians that I have worked with are totally afraid of this approach and will generally get stuck in some "groove" which too often becomes the same thing as a pre-meditated rut.

With pre-meditated music, I find that I really need to over-learn a tune to be able to play it well. I need to try to play it in different positions, vary the bow strokes and go through all kind of high jinks before it just flows effortlessly. If I'm playing bass guitar or classic guitar it is the same thing. If I just play without thinking, there are usually no wrong sounding notes. Currently I am concentrating on sight reading charts, but it should never be thought that this is how any music originated, just how a particularly good insight is preserved after the fact.
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Old 10-25-2007, 08:44 PM
Richard Prowse Richard Prowse is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by David Powell View Post
My intuition is that I've never really thought about this particular issue. I probably need to read that book.

Years ago, myself and 3 amateur musicians, one actually a bit more accomplished that the others started an improv quartet without really meaning to. We weren't consciously starting a band. We just started recording. We didn't talk about any musical parameters such as key, time signature or any of that. We just played the tracks for the recordings in one take each on an old 4 track Teac machine (reel to reel). What we produced was quite startling even to us. Not only did the recordings sound planned, but we found our improvisations nearly impossible to reproduce when we tried. Since those initial experiments the same four musicians have continued the experiments regularly, but not frequently. We extended it to performing live pretty early on and even to using instruments that we were unfamiliar with. Currently I am working in a trio configuration that largely works the same way. It is amazing what can be accomplished when the mind is free of expectation. Most of the musicians that I have worked with are totally afraid of this approach and will generally get stuck in some "groove" which too often becomes the same thing as a pre-meditated rut.

With pre-meditated music, I find that I really need to over-learn a tune to be able to play it well. I need to try to play it in different positions, vary the bow strokes and go through all kind of high jinks before it just flows effortlessly. If I'm playing bass guitar or classic guitar it is the same thing. If I just play without thinking, there are usually no wrong sounding notes. Currently I am concentrating on sight reading charts, but it should never be thought that this is how any music originated, just how a particularly good insight is preserved after the fact.
Very interesting David. I'm thinking about timbres of different notes, say, on a piano at present. I'd love to say more, but I'm at work and have a class very soon. Wish me luck.
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