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  #1  
Old 01-19-2007, 10:45 PM
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Lightbulb The Great English Double Basses

In July of 2005 I started a thread on TalkBass about the English School of Basses. By November or 2006, about 16 months later is was just short of 200 posts. While trying to avoid copying all the data here, I do want to re-cap the basics of what was discussed and learned. Still, I wish to continue this discussion of the English Bass which spanned about 150 years between the 18th and 19th centuries. Still, in the 20th – 21st centuries we see Basses being made in England.
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Old 01-19-2007, 10:46 PM
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Lightbulb The English Double Basses

I started this thread to bring to light the Great English Basses Known and Unknown. I would like to keep the content to Basses before 1900 but if something interesting pops up throw it in and see what shakes.

I have owned 4 English Basses thus far with 3 of them still in my possession. I have also owned 4 Italian Basses in the past (two now) and I must say that my 4 English Basses match or surpass my 4 Italians.

I have a Bass that I acquired in 2005 and sold in 2006 that I wanted to ID. How many people here have seen English Basses Circa 1800 with 3-piece tops. The center piece is about 10" wide. The lower bout is 27.25" across. This is the first old English Bass I have seen with a 3-piece top. The ff holes are not centered evenly at all from the neck. One is 3/6" lower than the other. The nicks are sharp 'Diamond' like cuts that are NOT off-set but rather even across facing each other. The Scroll is another Great work of art like the Gilkes but completely different. Oh, and the Varnish is a beautiful Golden Brown Oil typical of Dodd and other English makers of that period. This is the Bass here; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...d/DoddBass.htm

On a British Appraisal of the Dodd, it is mentions that it was used in the London Symphony (LSO), Royal Philarmonic (RPO) and the BBC Orchestra. The London Orchestras are known for their formidable sounding Bass section. My Dodd it the deepest most powerful Bass I have ever heard or played. Can you imagine a complete section of basses like this? That could be scary!

These are the other English Basses I have currently; http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double...GilkesBass.htm
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/Double.../Hart/Hart.htm
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/doublebasses/MysteryBass/name_that_bass2.htm
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Old 01-19-2007, 10:47 PM
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Lightbulb London Style..

Many Basses from the Early English are difficult to Identify. Some of them are in or near their original state as well and not as desirable to play as the more playable Fendts and Panormos with accessible neck block/shoulder cuts. English Basses made before Dragonetti's popularity were often Cello shaped type shoulders. Bernhard Simon Fendt II was born in 1800/1. His Father as well as J.F. Lott I, made their Basses with bigger shoulders as it was acceptable back then. Most of these 'sexier' shouldered English Basses are after 1800. Many of the older ones as well have been cut and reshaped.

Edit (7/13/07): Makers such as Panormo, Kennedy, B.S.Fendt I & II, *J.F.Lott I, W.Gilkes and J.Hart as well as a few others DID slope the broad Shoulders at the top with a steep angle bend on their Basses. This was not a later modification but rather original features of these great English Basses (*J.F. Lott II aka 'Jack' Lott was mainly a Violin maker as is only known to have made one (1) single Bass in his time). Panormo however is the only one known to have made carved Round Backs while all the others mentioned specialized in making Flat Back Basses. My Samuel Gilkes Bass although a carved Round Back was made in Cello form originally and without an Angle Break at the top.

I have shown the Dodd to a few of my contacts in the field as well as 5 different shops in the UK that are well versed in old English Basses. Betts was the first Name it carried but that was mainly due to the Stamp on the Back which can't be read and does not look at all like the Stamp that Betts used. One London Dealer is Positive it is a Dodd Shop Bass. That would then possibly point to Fendt or Lott Seniors, both of them. Of course both of their sons were considered slightly better makers as far as the Violins go but the 'Dads' were no slouches either. Dodd is reported to have done all of the Varnishing himself. The Varnish is beautiful regardless of who mixed or applied it.
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Old 01-19-2007, 10:48 PM
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Lightbulb External Linings?

Many Dodd and Forster Basses have Square corners. There are Linings are on some of the Fendts but these are usually later models after 1830. The Fendts took over the Betts Shop after his death in 1823. None of my English Basses have linings. Earlier Fendt I Basses were out of the Dodd (period 1798-1809) or Betts shop (1809-1823). I would imagine it was up to the Shop Master how things should be made and not the shop builder.

I do not find it odd at all that this Dodd Bass has no linings. I believe the makers involved in question did not use linings in their earlier period. The fact that this Bass was made without lining points more to the earlier period than the later of this school. Joseph Hill is one of the oldest known English makers to use outside linings but not on every Bass. The English were the greatest Copyists of mainly the Italian School. The combination of Linings and squared corners are one of the few English traits exclusive to them. Overlooked also is also their beautiful Gold Varnish.

Please guys, post pics like you did on TB of other English Basses too. I did not re-start this to discuss only my Basses. I am more than happy to do so but I don't wanna make it one sided......I don't care if you pull a Bass from some other website for discussion purposes. Lets have some fun and interesting conversation as we Journey into the makers of the Great English Basses.
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  #5  
Old 01-19-2007, 10:49 PM
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Lightbulb Painted Purfling

I played a beautiful Forster (attributed) 7/8 Cello model Bass last year at Biase's in NYC with the typical Square corners and rich brown Forster Varnish. The Bass is in near mint condition. Last month I looked closely at it again and noticed that the Purfling is scratched in lines and painted in.

When my Mystery Bass was first looked over by Biase in NY, he saw a few spots on the back where there were painted Purfling lines. Paul said in a flash during the ID of the Bass, "English Ink" in response to the painted lines. In recent reading of the 18th century makers, it was noted that quite a few either used painted purfling or did so on their lower cost models in place of real Purfling. I have seen Violins like this as well from the early English.

I have also seen German and Italian Basses without purfling and scratched or painted lines in it's place if anything at all.

There is no set rule or period of Basses without purfling in England but b4 1800 is more common than after 1850.

Now my Gilkes has Purfling "to die for". The only purfling job I have ever seen to match it was on a 1690s Strad Violin I saw awhile ago in NYC. It was the regular 3-layer and inlaid to the 'tips' just like the Gilkes. The Gilkes however is 7-layers of thin strips glued together, 4 black and 3 white lines. It is written that S.Gilkes Inlaid Purfling like Strad did. After seeing the Strad and Owning the Gilkes, I can see first hand why.

The English made ALL Qualities of String instruments. Some have fooled the best experts into thinking they were the real Classic Italians and some were made for the trade without purfling or blocks and even with integral Bassbars. To survive in the early 19th century, they had to keep up with the cheaper grade German and French instruments coming into the country and make some of their own.
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Old 01-19-2007, 10:49 PM
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Lightbulb Purfling and cracks

If you look at old Basses with cracks, you will see that the Crack either runs straight up under the purfling, thru the purfling or slightly sideways if the Purfling deflects the crack slightly off track and to the sides and around it. Tension and/or shrinkage has caused the Crack and nothing will stop it. Just look at Bass Bar Cracks. The Bass Bar is 1000 x more massive than Purfling yet Basses crack right under and thru the Bar all the time.

Violins crack all the time. Purfling acts like a tiny 'Damn' in a Flood. It either flows through the Damn if big enough or Flows around it somewhere else.. But the Flood waters come like it or not. Violins are much stronger in relation to Basses. The Purfling is about the same size and inlaid the same depth as on a Bass but the Bass is much bigger. The purfling will have a similar proportioned diminished effect on a Bass as it is in ratio to the size difference to the Violin if at all.
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  #7  
Old 01-19-2007, 10:50 PM
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Lightbulb Fendt..

Last year I saw and held a beautiful B.S. Fendt Amati model Bass with a golden brown Varnish. Nice and sweet, rich and colorful sounding Bass. I also tried a handwritten labeled English Bass from a J.Wilkins, 1893, London. This was a gamba shaped Bass and had a sweet English sound as well. A few years ago Kolstein had a James Brown gamba shaped English Bass that reminds me very much in shape, size and color of this Wilkins Bass. I believe the J.Brown Bass is still on Kolsteins Archives but I don't have access to it.

Since the Basses were not mine and were only brought for comparison purposes as my Dodd and Martini were tried out, I didn’t take any pics of them.

Just prior to that I looked at a Maggini model Fendt and had similar style FFs but was covered in a deep rich Reddish Varnish over Gold which showed thru in some warn areas. and. Usually the Maggini and d'Salo model Fendts have the Brecian FFs but I have heard of another Maggini model Fendt as well still bearing the Amati style FFs. It turned out that the Red colored Fendt had 4 tiny stamps inside the back that said J.HART. Only after the Back came off and was being cleaned did we find this hidden treasure.
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Old 01-19-2007, 10:51 PM
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Lightbulb More on HART here;

John Thomas Hart born in London in 1805 (d.1874) went to study with Samuel Gilkes at the age of 15 (1820) just 6 years after Gilkes completed my Bass. Hart was known mainly as a repairer and connoisseur of Violin Family Instruments and Bows. He got his start as a pupil of Samuel Gilkes who died in 1827. This Hart is believed to be c.1830 or maybe earlier.

Now, we believe the Bass attributed to Fendt for almost 40 years is actually made by J.Hart. Hart is listed as being in the Gilkes/Forster School of makers in at least 2 of the books I have written by and about the English makers.

Any other spine chilling stories out there to be told as far as the English? (Basses I mean)..

John Hart founded the famous Hart & Sons Makers & Dealers of the 19th century and later succeeded by George I and II, the son and grandson of John.
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Old 01-19-2007, 10:52 PM
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Lightbulb More on this HART;

Laminated to the bottom Rib at the tail-block is a business card/label under the Varnish. This is actually a separate piece grafted/spliced wood to the bottom Ribs at the Block and looks to be a very old repair. The business card is under some very dark varnish and hard to read but seems to say;
__________________________________________________ _____

Messrs. Bird & Sons
56 Berwick St. 1 Door from Oxford St.
for instructions .............................
50 Double Basses on Sale from 8 to 100 guineas
The Double Bass and 40 Music Stands can be had on hire
Professional Gentlemen have a double bass at a moderate price
__________________________________________________ _____

When I told this news of the "J.HART" stamps to Duane Rosengard he responded by saying how rare a find this was. 'Olde' Bird as he was known had personally introduced Samuel Allen (19th century English Bow maker) to W.E. Hill himself! Allen actually set-up the Hill Bow making shop and was one of his top Bow makers. Bird was a 19th century dealer and connoisseur of fine Double Basses in the 19th century.

This Bass was apparently at one time in the possession of 'Bird & Son' as the outer laminated label suggests.

Some of the names we discussed in the old TB thread included; Forster, Hill, Panormo, Dodd, Fendt, Lott, Gilkes, Kennedy, Betts, Tarr, Cole, Devereaux, Baker, Furber, Smith, Allwood, Davies, Wilkins, Brown, Gough, Briggs, Corsby and maybe a few others.

Some of these I introduced and some by others looking for help with IDs on Basses they were looking at.

Please re-introduce those here with 'only' the most current info and get a few names and pics on record of these great English Basses.. Once known as 'The Poor Mans Italian'..
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  #10  
Old 01-26-2007, 08:15 PM
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Cool J.Hart stamps

I took some pics a few days ago while visiting Arnold. Here is a couple of them;





More can be seen here on the Hart page. Or, is it a Fendt? The Jury is still out on that by the way.
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Old 02-05-2007, 05:50 AM
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Default John Furber

Furber got a mention in your history pages Ken so here are afew pics of my attributed to Furber bass.......
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Old 02-09-2007, 09:20 PM
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Thumbs up Furber..

Dave, that's a beautiful Bass. When I was researching John Betts concerning a Bass I had here from London, John Furber was listed as one of his makers or 'out workers'. It's still unclear to me if Furber actually worked inside the Betts shop on his own supplying Betts or a combination of both. Later on, Tom Martin tells me my Betts is actually a Dodd. I believe it was T.Martin that ID'd your Bass as well, no? Either way, it held a similar value if not more. I sold it in less than a year to a professional Symphony Bassist. Next to my Gilkes and Storioni, it was one of the best Basses I have played. I am sure your English Bass is right on par with it.

I hope to be able to try your Bass one day. It looks beautiful.. Enjoy it..
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Old 10-30-2007, 05:46 PM
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Thumbs up Hart is done...

The Hart is done now and resting beside the Gilkes..

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Old 11-10-2007, 05:01 PM
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Thumbs up Playing the Hart..

I took the Hart out this morning for a dress rehearsal. It's only the 2nd time I've taken it out. Instead of playing the Martini as originally planned, I will use the Hart tonight for the Concert.

In a big hall like this I can really hear the tone and smooth sweet low end 'booom'' the Bass has. The Pizz is nice and the Arco even nicer. The low notes on the C-extension are so smooth and thick sounding yet easy to bow and as loud as any note on the Bass. This Bass is so even sounding I can't find words to better describe it.

I think I have found a new 'Concert' Bass to use. The Martini is fine and the Gilkes is fantastic. This Bass has them both beat combined hands down I think. The Gilkes seems louder I think when you play it but a different type of tone. The Martini seems to have some lower end floor-type spread in the sound. The Hart though is fairly loud, deep, clear, smooth, easy to play and did I mention beautiful to look at?

I used the Hart last week at a rehearsal and it felt bigger against my body than the Martini which I was more comfortable with. Today I had a 3-hour rehearsal and the Hart fit me like a glove on stage.
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Old 11-12-2007, 10:48 PM
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Default Hart

Absolutely fantastic!!!!!

Nice restoration and congratulations on your new/old bass.
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Old 11-12-2007, 11:04 PM
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Thumbs up Thxxx..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken McKay View Post
Absolutely fantastic!!!!!

Nice restoration and congratulations on your new/old bass.
I used it for the Concert and I tell you, I could feel the Bass spreading wider by the second half of the Concert. We had 4 Basses in the section and when I dug in, I felt like I had left them at the starting gate. This Bass is truly in the upper class of high end Orchestra Basses as far as I'm concerned. It even has a nice funky sound playing Jazz Pizz and that's with regular Flexocors on it and used ones not doubt that I took off my Gilkes two months earlier!
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Old 02-19-2008, 12:01 PM
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Lightbulb Devereux...

We are discussing Kurt's new Bass over on TB which was pictured in the Elgar book as an Attributed Daniel Parker Bass. While discussing it, two links about Devereux popped up. Here they are; One, and two. Also, here is the TB thread mentioned. I think all of this is important English bass history so I am including it here. It can also be duped here as well.
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Old 05-09-2008, 01:22 AM
carlopetro carlopetro is offline
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Question Stamps

From this thread and the one you started on TB Ken I am noticing that English basses seem to have stamp on the back button. Is this a common trait for English basses? (City Year)

I also see you mention 'Linings', what exactly is a 'Lining'?

thx
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Old 05-09-2008, 02:42 AM
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Cool ...stamp on the back button..

Quote:
Originally Posted by carlopetro View Post
From this thread and the one you started on TB Ken I am noticing that English basses seem to have stamp on the back button. Is this a common trait for English basses? (City Year)

I also see you mention 'Linings', what exactly is a 'Lining'?

thx
Well, this is quite common on English Basses and Violins as well made by them but not all makers used a stamp. I have also seen this on some Italian Basses but is quite rare in comparison. You also find quite a bit of Pencil writing inside the Basses from both Repairmen and Makers as well. I even see hand engraving/scoring both on the inside of the Basses and the outside as well if they fell like it.

Here's a few examples of markings on some English Basses. Please feel free to ask questions about any of the Basses shown here;
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Old 05-09-2008, 01:12 PM
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Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Here's a few examples of markings on some English Basses. Please feel free to ask questions about any of the Basses shown here;
Is that a Crown? (English -> Monarchy -> Crown) Having a stamp sure makes it easier to ID those basses eh?

The insert in the back button of the Hart is sure a classy touch!

I noticed a stamp of 'Birmingham' on one of the posts on TB. None of your bass's stamps bear the location but rather the maker. - Intertesting - I wonder why some would rather mark the location rather than the maker???? Did England have certain areas that where known for instrument making simalir to say Mirecourt in France.

I also wonder if English makers where concerned with a better way of identifying their instruments than paper labels that could be removed? I have seen books with collections of photos of Violin labels, I wonder if anyone has ever catalogued English stamp?

Mystery????

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