Gut Thoughts for Orchestral Bowing

[Ken Smith]

Ok, I started a Thread on Guts over on TB and has since been merged with about 2 others but because I was not 100% clear about my Bowing quest, almost every 'weed whacker' in town replied which flooded the Thread with off-topic Posts.

So, I am looking to discuss traditional Guts (only) which mean G&D plain Gut and A&E Wound Gut. This Excludes Eudoxas, Olivs and any other wannabe Gut look alike as well as Hybrids that wanna sound or look like Gut. Just old fashioned Guts that are made today that are usable in Orchestra on a decent or better quality Orchestra Bass. This probably excludes Plywoods and Hybrids as well. It does matter very much I think the quality of the Bass you are trying to play. Using Guts may be difficult enough to begin with much less trying to Bow in an Orchestra with a Bass that hardly sounds good regardless of the String you use.

So please, if you have any thoughts or suggestions on Orchestral Bowing with Guts, please reply here. The suitable brands I have heard about include Gamuts', Dlugoleki's, Chorda's, Larson's, Lenzner's and even LaBella's. Even though some of you have mentioned that the Labella's are not so great, I recently used a set and they worked just fine on my Bisiach Bass in Orchestra. This may be a good example of how the grade of the Bass is important in judging the String.

For now, I am waiting on a set of Chordas made by Pirastro to try next. I have picked out which Bass in my rack to use for a few reasons for these Guts. This is an Italian Bass by Lombardi made in 1981 that I just got recently. The Lombardi needs a full set-up with Fingerboard, Nut, Saddle, Endpin and Bridge. All but the Bridge are made from Wenge, an African hardwood. It works fine but not as good as it can be. The Bridge has a foot Shim and will get another for the height needed for the Gut. This way by widening the slots at the Bridge and Nut I am not altering anything that isn't getting replaced anyway. Also, I have been informed by a fine Luthier that Guts sound better on lighter weighted Basses as well. The Lombardi is the lightest I have so that Bass sounds like the perfect candidate for my next Gut trial.

If you have the time, please read my Posts over on the TB Thread and any of the related replies or comments. I can't fix what has been done there but here I can moderate it much better. Posters from TB that are over here as well are welcomed to re-post any comments they may have even if posted already over there.

[davidseidel]

I put a full set of Chordas on 6 months ago on my attributed old English bass and though I am not currently doing any orchestral playing I have certainly done plenty of bowing on them one way and another. This bass is heavyweight and sounds and plays really well for arco in general but I mainly play jazz etc. The Chordas are pretty heavy gauge by my reckoning especially the D, A and E meaning thick rather than heavy weight. Once you practice a bit on them they are not so hard to bow and have a wonderful meaty tone or should I say gutsy? The great thing is in the 50s and earlier you didn't have to have different strings for arco or pizz and these do great with both IMHO. But at a price as they are less forgiving with the bow and you have to be more precise in every stroke but isn't that a good thing anyway? And the more soulful deep and colorful tone is ample reward. I have used Dlugolecki's G and D as well and they were nice too but these are maybe stronger sound overall.

I know lots of players who were around when gut strings were the mainstream say been there done that etc but I can't believe they didn't hear something missing when metal came in...... I know it was more of a practical modernising change but at the expense of the glorious classic bass tone which only real gut gives IMHO!

The plain guts stay in tune pretty well but the wound ones will change drastically when weather changes but during course of a gig I find tuning pretty good actually.

It may be worth trying Gerold Genssler as well - I had some from him in very early days of Velvet when they were making gut strings and they really had a sound, so I would imagine his new varieties would be excellent too - just haven't got around to trying his yet as I am more than happy with the Chordas for now, for what its worth.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by davidseidel

I put a full set of Chordas on 6 months ago on my attributed old English bass and though I am not currently doing any orchestral playing I have certainly done plenty of bowing on them one way and another. This bass is heavyweight and sounds and plays really well for arco in general but I mainly play jazz etc. The Chordas are pretty heavy gauge by my reckoning especially the D, A and E meaning thick rather than heavy weight. Once you practice a bit on them they are not so hard to bow and have a wonderful meaty tone or should I say gutsy? The great thing is in the 50s and earlier you didn't have to have different strings for arco or pizz and these do great with both IMHO. But at a price as they are less forgiving with the bow and you have to be more precise in every stroke but isn't that a good thing anyway? And the more soulful deep and colorful tone is ample reward. I have used Dlugolecki's G and D as well and they were nice too but these are maybe stronger sound overall.

I know lots of players who were around when gut strings were the mainstream say been there done that etc but I can't believe they didn't hear something missing when metal came in...... I know it was more of a practical modernising change but at the expense of the glorious classic bass tone which only real gut gives IMHO!

The plain guts stay in tune pretty well but the wound ones will change drastically when weather changes but during course of a gig I find tuning pretty good actually.

It may be worth trying Gerold Genssler as well - I had some from him in very early days of Velvet when they were making gut strings and they really had a sound, so I would imagine his new varieties would be excellent too - just haven't got around to trying his yet as I am more than happy with the Chordas for now, for what its worth.

Well including all the TB replies I got on the new combined mega Gut thread, this is the best news I have had to date. I think I am going to copy your reply to that thread. Also, you did it on an old English Bass as well which as you know I still have 3 of the 4 that I bought, one of them still in restoration. Sounds like you are walking on the clouds..

[David Powell]

Off and on I have this odd desire to string up my bass with guts and one friend of mine suggested strings made by Boston Catlines. Has anyone used those or heard of that maker??

I am not an "orchestra guy", but I favor arco playing in many different contexts where most players play pizz. I am a fan of the orchestra and of classical / baroque music. I also play a 5-stringer and understand bowing guts on that one will not be a walk in the park, so perhaps I am just entertaining a fantasy that requires an extra bass (or two). After reading so much about Dlugoleki and Gamuts, I wondered if anyone has experience with Boston Catlines?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by David Powell

Off and on I have this odd desire to string up my bass with guts and one friend of mine suggested strings made by Boston Catlines. Has anyone used those or heard of that maker??

I am not an "orchestra guy", but I favor arco playing in many different contexts where most players play pizz. I am a fan of the orchestra and of classical / baroque music. I also play a 5-stringer and understand bowing guts on that one will not be a walk in the park, so perhaps I am just entertaining a fantasy that requires an extra bass (or two). After reading so much about Dlugoleki and Gamuts, I wondered if anyone has experience with Boston Catlines?

Do you expect 'serious' strings made from a company with such a misguided name? Show me a Cat big enough to have Guts that can make a bass string! Can't? Then shop elsewhere. Anyway, they can't afford a website yet from the search I just made. Maybe they are just tying 2 or 3 Cats together for each string. Anyone missing a Cat out there? Ever hear a Sheep meow or a Cat baahhh?? Why wasn't the "Catgut Society" named the "Sheepgut Society"? All that research and they mislead you at the front door!..

For your quest Dave, look back at how the wound E-Gut was developed 200 years ago and you will see that it was not easy to get a note to sound at an even volume under the A. Now wound Gut Es are ok on some Basses but a B? That will be a challenge in two ways. First, find one! Second, try playing it. Did I mention a third way? Well if you think it's difficult finding a Bass with an even volume steel/metal low B bowed then good luck doing it on Gut.

Get a 4-string or maybe even a 4 with an Extension to go down. I called LaBella and asked for a set for an Extension and I might just get it. Now, which Bass of mine with an Extension can I spare for this quest and will that Bass be playable with Gut?

Ok, I will let the audience choose. Currently, only my Hart, Gilkes and Martini have Extensions. My full sized old English Gamba should be done soon but without an Extension. I think playing that monster as a normal 4-strings is enough of a challenge much lest reaching back for an Extension. Fingering and bowing Gut will be twice the challenge. The Storioni would be great if it were done but the Restoration is not even starting for awhile so that's at least 2 years out.

Choose between the 3 Basses above I first mentioned for a Gut-string Extension Orchestral Bass, and why! Yes, tell me why you made that choice. You may also ask questions here online about any of the 3 basses to help make your decision.

[David Powell]

So I take it this is the first you've heard of Boston Catlines, Ken? I think the name is a play on the ancient Italian name, and since the market is mostly period use on period reproduction instruments, the name is serious, if not reflective of the materials used now or then. You can reach Olav Chris Henriksen of Boston Catlines by e-mail at Calines@aol.com. It seems from my communications that he prefers to take custom orders over the telephone (I know;- that technology is ancient).


I was told his strings were the very very best available by a local Renaissance / Baroque instrument lutenist. I think I'll order a D/G plain gut pair and see what these are like since this supplier is obviously not too well known. And as always, I appreciate your informed precautions. Dlugolecki makes a wound string for violones in 80 gauge that is intended as a D string (baroque tuning) for 95-105 cm mensur. At 110 cm., same tension, that is a C string, which puts it only a half-step up from the low B. And then when you invoke modern A=440, it is even closer. So it might be a little loose, but a shade larger would be right on target, perhaps an 83 gauge?

I don't yet know of any plain gut strings that would come close to the low B at reasonable tension.

When I look at the attendant difficulties associated with 5 strings, I also look at historical violones with 6 strings (lowest tuning DD) and wonder how the increased difficulties were dealt with in those times. Perhaps it is in the way hair tension is achieved with the baroque style bows? Being able to vary the tension on the fly might be the answer. When is Katie Long going to pop in and enlighten us????

I do still have my old 4-stringer and maybe that would be the place to start, but I really want the low notes and the configuration/mensur I'm used to. Definitely a second DB is the answer. I need a spare 5-er anyway.

I do think the Catgut Society is called something else now, but we are getting off topic there. When I get a couple of the Boston Catline strings and bow on them, I'll check back in and report. I'll see what Olav thinks about the BB possibilities.

[Pete George]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

...look back at how the wound E-Gut was developed 200 years ago and you will see that it was not easy to get a note to sound at an even volume under the A. Now wound Gut Es are ok on some Basses but a B? That will be a challenge in two ways. First, find one! Second, try playing it. Did I mention a third way? Well if you think it's difficult finding a Bass with an even volume steel/metal low B bowed then good luck doing it on Gut.

Ken, I've been wondering the same thing. I got in touch with Gerold Genssler in Berlin (the Velvet Strings alum and bassist behind the new -- and fantastic -- Sonores line of gut bass strings), and Gerold would be happy to make a low B. Having played for a few months on his long C/E on my 4-string, I'm very interested in trying it.

The Sonores "Drago Basso" (modern orchestra) wound-gut C/E is a very loud string, easy to bow, and no thicker than the Evah C/E.

If anyone can meet your challenge on a low B, my guess is that it's Gerold and Sonores. I'm sure it won't be cheap, but I expect that it will be well worth it.