Bass Machines

[Jeff Campbell]

Being the bass nerd that I am, I've been thinking lately that I wanted to start a discussion on Ken's forum about bass machines, their varieties, origins, etc. Your post has motivated me to take the first step. For example, what are origins of the machines pictured on this scroll? The Scroll is from a Milanese bass from 1690. These are the same machines on the Karr/Koussevitsky bass. French machines are easily identifiable as are English. But what about Italian machines? Also - what about the use (or non-use) of plates. It seems that many Italian basses do not have plates while most English do...AND the big question, many of the old basses were three stringers - when they were converted to 4 stringers (100 or more years after they were made) what happened to the original machines? And what type were they? (Old wooden barrels, etc.??) One can see some basses where a non-matching 4th machine was added, but many fine old basses have been refitted long ago with a matching set of 4 machines. Who was making these fine, high-end machines?

[Ken Smith]

Excellent topic. I moved this from the Mittenwald bass thread. It needs it's own space as it includes basses from all over.

Boy, have I seen some machines in my life. Some good and some not so good.

The gears you post are turn of the century German within the last 100-120 years or so.

The handles are Iron I think with laminated brass caps. That is the key with these, the brass caps over Iron. I have seen them used on various gears, on and off plates.

My Mittenwald has them in a heart shape handle, not a round shaped/oval button.

Please feel free to look thru the basses on my site and pull off the pics with these laminated brass capped gears. I have several basses with them including the gears formerly on my Gilkes but they were not original to the bass.

Ok, on the plates or no plates the English liked to do that from what I have seen as well as re-fit many Italian basses with them as well. Also, many Italian so called basses have since been identified as British. One point I want to make is that you should not solely identify a bass by it's gears. Even if they are 100% original to that scroll, how do you know for sure the scroll matches the bass?

On the 3-4 conversions, most basses I have seen do not have their original 3 gears with a 4th added. Some do, but many of them have had total replacements. Many basses especially Italian were made with less than desirable gears for modern use. Some may have been made with Cello type pegs or some other kind of tuning design in between.

My Panormo School bass has old English brass plates that seem original and the 2 of the 3 original Baker gears have been moved to cover the center hole of its 3-string days. The 4th gear is also a Baker but not 100% identical to the other 3 if you look close. Have a look yourself and tell me who's the new guy?


The Hawkes I just sold had 3 of its original Gears on the original plates, all moved to fit 4 gears with one similar gear added and the handles/buttons look to have been replaced on the Gears to fit the shorter pegbox.

Happy gear hunting.

[Jeff Campbell]

Thanks Ken,

I think the new gear in your post is the bottom on the left profile picture. (Typically the G - String tuner). Here's a photo of the inside of the peg box of the Milanese scroll I posted earlier. Obviously, the plugged hole was much larger, perhaps a wooden peg? There are no marks on the outside of the scroll that reflect the old hole suggesting the sides have been re-cheeked. From the position and size of the old hole, this appears to be an original three stringer.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jeff Campbell

Thanks Ken,

I think the new gear in your post is the bottom on the left profile picture. (Typically the G - String tuner). Here's a photo of the inside of the peg box of the Milanese scroll I posted earlier. Obviously, the plugged hole was much larger, perhaps a wooden peg? There are no marks on the outside of the scroll that reflect the old hole suggesting the sides have been re-cheeked. From the position and size of the old hole, this appears to be an original three stringer.

Yes, the G is the newer one with 20 teeth on the gear. The others have 24, an easy way to tell.

I would like to see that 1690 bass. Sounds interesting plus, anything that old is quite rare as much more basses are claimed to be than are as we all know very well. The Karr/Koussevitsky Bass was half the age claimed in the past being off by over 200 years? How can they make that mistake for so long? Hide the bass and make the claim?

[Jeff Campbell]

Here's a close up of the the 1690 bass...(I posted these a while ago):

http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=1537

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jeff Campbell

Here's a close up of the the 1690 bass...(I posted these a while ago):

http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=1537

Yes, I remember now, Thank's for the reminder. How does it sound?

[Jeff Campbell]

Being spoiled with the big sound of my Mittenwald bass, this little Italian bass has a more focused sound. It is very complex and colorful. I've played it primarily in a jazz setting and it's a true joy. Lots of growl, sustain, and rhythm section punch. It is said to be a C.G. Testore instrument. If you look at the shape of the FF's and their placement, you can see a similar format (though not exact) to the Bottesini bass.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jeff Campbell

Being spoiled with the big sound of my Mittenwald bass, this little Italian bass has a more focused sound. It is very complex and colorful. I've played it primarily in a jazz setting and it's a true joy. Lots of growl, sustain, and rhythm section punch. It is said to be a C.G. Testore instrument. If you look at the shape of the FF's and their placement, you can see a similar format (though not exact) to the Bottesini bass.

Well, I don't see it as that but The Bottesini is not a Carlo Guiseppe, it is the son Carlo Antonio. I see the style of the bass but not the Testore. I don't know how many I have seen real or imagined or which are true so far and that makes it confusing.

[Jeff Campbell]

Yes, I agree about the confusing part. As far as I know GC Testore did not label his basses and even if he did, there would still be instruments attributed to him with fake labels. I realize too that the Bottesini bass was by CA Testore and this bass is attributed to CG so my comment regarding the FF's is a stretch (or even a leap). Having had the bass in my possession a time or two, I have had the chance to really look it over (with my amateur eyes) and though it sounds great, I still don't really know enough to make any kind of educated evaluation.

[Thomas Erickson]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Many basses especially Italian were made with less than desirable gears for modern use. Some may have been made with Cello type pegs or some other kind of tuning design in between.

Are there any basses left around that still have cello style pegs? Would they even work on a modern bass?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Thomas Erickson

Are there any basses left around that still have cello style pegs? Would they even work on a modern bass?

None in use that I have seen. Maybe somewhere in a Museum somewhere that was never yet modified. I for sure would never want to have to play a Bass with cello pegs. Sounds like a huge problem to tune and stay in tune.

[Adam Linz]

Does anyone know if Rubner Tuners are distributed in the US? I've only seen a few of there higher end tuners on basses here in the states. I've tried to order and email them several times with no luck. Seems that everything on the web-site is not in stock, at least the French Rustic Tuners. Thanks for any help. Adam Linz, MN

[Thomas Erickson]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

None in use that I have seen. Maybe somewhere in a Museum somewhere that was never yet modified. I for sure would never want to have to play a Bass with cello pegs. Sounds like a huge problem to tune and stay in tune.

Yes, un-modified is what I meant.

I don't think it'd be much fun either; it seems like they might not even be functional with steel strings, but I'm not really sure. Might be interesting and more tolerable on some kind of small chamber instrument with gut strings I guess.


No particular reason to not use gears though, other than just because

[Thomas Erickson]

Originally Posted by Adam Linz

Does anyone know if Rubner Tuners are distributed in the US? I've only seen a few of there higher end tuners on basses here in the states. I've tried to order and email them several times with no luck. Seems that everything on the web-site is not in stock, at least the French Rustic Tuners. Thanks for any help. Adam Linz, MN

I know they were in the recent past; I have them on my bass and my friend (who I goth them from) has some more sets left, I think. I'll ask where he was getting them from.

[Vince Jesse]

Rubner tuners are distributed through Metropolitan, Howard Core, International Violin, Nova, etc.