Endpin talk...

[Ken Smith]

I have seen just about everything from a Broom Stick in the Endpin to Carbon Fiber rods and Bent Endpins as well as the other standard variety from Steel Rods to Aluminum or Ebony Shafts. Some people think the material makes a difference in sound and some also think the length extended outwards or left inside un-extended also affects the tone and volume of the Bass.

I also want to point out that sound may differ as well regardless of the Endpin type or extension depending on the surface you are playing on. Do any of you notice that with Amps some sound better on wheels and some on the rubber depending on the floor type and the room?

What are your thoughts and experiences on this?

For several years I've been using the carbon fiber Laborie endpin. A couple months ago I got the new design of this endpin which is made of an African hardwood (padauk). Laborie told me he had been surprised at how much better the hardwood endpin sounded than the carbon fiber. I was pretty skeptical but there really is a noticable difference. The sound is warmer and more resonant with the wooden endpin. Its prettier too.

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Several months ago, I stuck a 5/8" birch dowel in place of the hollow metal pin and the bass sounded much warmer and seemed to have a bit more volume. This was on both tile and hardwood floors. The problem is that I sit on a low stool and with the bass laying into me, it slid on the crutch tip. It just didn't seem worth the trouble.

Regarding amps, I've used a small tripod Ultimate stand to help me hear, but nothing else.

[Charles Federle]

This question of endpins has been rather interesting to me lately, as we tried changing a friend of mines from something that was about 2-3 feet long to a 8 inch carbon fiber endpin. With nothing else changed his sound was much warmer and less metallic. Not sure if it has more to do with the material or the length, but it was a huge difference and I am now going to experiment around a bit. (since I don't really use much of an endpin this is easier then for some.)

I wonder though on those that use wood endpins. Do you have a metal tip to keep it in place or some sort of rubber cap on the end ?

The Laborie endpin has a soft rubber ball on the end which grips very well. Its not prone to slippage anyway since the endpin comes out of the bass at an angle, so is pretty much perpendicular to the floor when you're playing.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Greg Clinkingbeard

Several months ago, I stuck a 5/8" birch dowel in place of the hollow metal pin and the bass sounded much warmer and seemed to have a bit more volume. This was on both tile and hardwood floors. The problem is that I sit on a low stool and with the bass laying into me, it slid on the crutch tip. It just didn't seem worth the trouble.

Regarding amps, I've used a small tripod Ultimate stand to help me hear, but nothing else.

My reference to the Amps was only that it makes a difference on different floors and with wheels or rubber feet so with Basses it might make a difference as well what kind of Endpin you use.

I am wondering why they can't use the regular Endpin socket rather than drilling a second hole in the Block for the tilted unit. Also, how is it different to use a bent Endpin or just tilt the Bass with a regular Endpin. The entire Philly Orch and NY Phil in the sections use regular Endpins. I think I did see Hal Robinson do a solo one day and have a bent Endpin on that Bass but not on any of the Orchestral Basses I have seen.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I am wondering why they can't use the regular Endpin socket rather than drilling a second hole in the Block for the tilted unit. Also, how is it different to use a bent Endpin or just tilt the Bass with a regular Endpin. The entire Philly Orch and NY Phil in the sections use regular Endpins. I think I did see Hal Robinson do a solo one day and have a bent Endpin on that Bass but not on any of the Orchestral Basses I have seen.

Not sure what you're envisioning with the endpin coming out of the regular socket. However, one argument against doing it that way is that not having the endpin in the socket that is in touch with the tailpiece-string assembly allows the bass to vibrate more freely

No doubt those of us using this type of endpin are a small minority, but we're a growing one! I bet you will see more and more players everywhere (including in major sections) using this type in the future.

[Ken Smith]

I have seen Viennese type Basses with a separate wood socket for the Tailwire close to the Top and the Endpin by the center. I haven't seen any vintage Basses of high value thus far with a second hole drilled towards the Back of the Bass for this bent thing. I would be worried about weakening the Bass at the block area myself.

I myself do a combination of sitting or standing depending on how I feel or what Bass I am using. Some Endpins have a round Rubber Ball at the end but on a wooden floor, they tend to slide a bit more than on carpet.

One one of my Basses in Restoration now I was trying to decide which Endpin type to use since I will only be up a few inches if that much. I was considering either a standard 3/8 steel pin unit or a wooden one and maybe make a few sizes for standing or sitting lengths if it mattered at all sound wise. I usually cut off most of the excess inside the Bass on both the Steel and Carbon Fiber Rods.

The Bass is a 7/8-4/4 size standing about 6ft5in (77") from the top saddle to the tip of the Scroll. After the Bass is shortened at the Block and Neck Graft is will be about 75" minimum. With the Endpin in all the way, you can add about 3 1/2" with the Endpin all the way in. This is one Bass I actually measured for an Endpin unit so that when I sit, the Back doesn't touch the floor. The Socket is about 1/2" or so forward of center so this was a concern as the Ribs are 8.5" inside the plates (over 9" with Top & Back). Tilting this Bass when I sit is of some concern since the 'Pin will be very low.

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I am wondering why they can't use the regular Endpin socket rather than drilling a second hole in the Block for the tilted unit. Also, how is it different to use a bent Endpin or just tilt the Bass with a regular Endpin.

You can use the regular pin socket to attach an egg pin which simulates the Laborie without the second hole. It's a fairly heavy device that goes on and off the bass for travel. Hans Sturm, who produced Rabbath's "Art of the Bow" video uses the egg pin with his older Italian bass as he didn't want to have a hole drilled in it. I used the egg pin to experiment with the angled pin concept before I had a hole drilled. I suppose you could also bend a pin to simulate the position of the laborie pin. Holding it firmly in the socket so it doesn't twist might be a challenge. I like the convenience of the Laborie pin. I don't think my basses sound different with it than with the egg pin.

I also used a 45º bent pin in my normal socket for a while. It changed the balance of the bass a bit, causing it to fall in towards my body at a more open angle, but didn't have the dramatic effect of the Laborie pin with the drilled hole.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I also want to point out that sound may differ as well regardless of the Endpin type or extension depending on the surface you are playing on.

Some years ago I was doing a recording session, jazz quartet, and the engineer just couldn't come up with a good bass sound, he must have spent an hour at this. He had me set up in a carpeted booth. I finally took the bass out of the room, played a few notes on a hardwood floor, and that was it. From that point on, I always ask for a piece of plywood to set the bass on if there is carpeting. The carpet seemed to suck up the percussive attack of the instrument. Hard surfaces seem to emphasize it, what I want in jazz playing, at least.

[Charles Federle]

One thing I forgot to mention is that when I tried the experiment with my friend's bass we tried the same thing with mine. For my bass it did not make as dramatic of a difference as his. Might of had to do with mine being shorter (only about 18 inches), hollow like the carbon fiber rod, and perhaps because it was much lighter then his.

I do think it is important though being able to stick the endpin into the floor. Granted some places more then others. One concert hall I play in they have boxes for each player, similar to that a cello soloist might use, even has a bass bar in the box right about where you would put your end pin. These boxes make a huge difference especially when playing on the extension.

[Robert Anzellotti]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

...I am wondering why they can't use the regular Endpin socket rather than drilling a second hole in the Block for the tilted unit. Also, how is it different to use a bent Endpin or just tilt the Bass with a regular Endpin. ...

Are you referring to the Laborie? And are you suggesting that the through-hole in the socket could be angled? I have not only pondered this, but done it. The through-hole is always straight simply because it's way easier to manufacture a socket this way. Making it angled not only complicates production, but the amount of angle is limited by the bore and height of the bottom block, and the diameter of the socket. I made some extra wide sockets for my basses and drilled the holes at an angle, but was only able to achieve about 10°. I think a typical Laborie installation is 30° or more.

Still, I find that even the modestly angled pin was worth doing. Besides the effect on playability of moving the center of gravity rearwards (which I find quite positive), my reason for doing it was to reduce skating. I don't know why, but I cannot use a rubber tip when sitting. Unless I have my sharp point deeply embedded in the floor, or have a belt connecting my pin to my stool, I will chase the bass all the way up to the conductor before the first break. Having an angled pin greatly reduces this tendancy.

Also, you reduce the active length of the endpin, which is especially beneficial for tall players. Having 15" of pin sticking out in front of you is bad for several reasons, stress on the bottom block being a big one. Cellists have adopted the "angle" in large numbers. I think they know something. Since most bassists don't extend their endpins very far, it is a lesser issue for us, but I think not insignificant.

So far, the choices are to either bore a second hole (Laborie), schlepp some heavy hardware - which looks like it came from a suspension bridge - (Eggpin), or use a bent pin which destroys the collar/setscrew. I never tried to market my angled socket because I decided players wouldn't accept the fatness or reduced angle. I think angled pins are a good idea, but a good design has yet to be offered.

[Eric Hochberg]

I'm thinking about replacing my endpin and would like to know which you prefer. I've looked at the KCStrings, Onyx, Ulsa on the web. Any others?