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  #21  
Old 07-06-2009, 11:57 PM
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Interesting pics. I would also like to see the rear button of the Scroll/pegbox.

The Scroll and Gears looks original to each other. I would say Mittenwald 1820-1860 period, maybe later. Not sure. Do you know for sure if this Scroll is original to the Bass?

The Braces in the Back (would like to see the lower one too) look German as well, like seen on Hornsteiner Basses. But, the Bars have been thinned across the top of them. The oxidation on the edge is way older than the top.

The Back Button area does not look original meaning it was cut. The upper block and Rib-Neck caps of Ebony are part of that cut.

The inner linings are from various dates but does look like German work internally.

Jeff, in your first post with the two pics (Seitz bass?) you show some measurements. Are they from this bass or that bass?

This Bass also has some northern Italian flavor which is why I think it is Mittenwald from the early-mid 19th century. Very interesting looking bass. Thanks for the pics. More pics would be welcomed.
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  #22  
Old 07-07-2009, 02:40 PM
Jeff Campbell Jeff Campbell is offline
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Thanks for all your help Ken. I'm a slow tech-no learner but wanted to share a few more photos of my big mystery bass (although, some things are becoming more clear). The measurements I sent a few posts ago are from this bass not the Seitz bass I posted a while ago. I've set up a link with the photos of the bass giving more detail. Any observations are appreciated. I also have a Morelli bass dated from 1910 that I'm going to take some photos of. Though I've seen a lot of Morelli basses, I've not seen too many with the same general shape as mine. Most I've seen are from the 1920s and beyond but I've not see another one like mine from 1910. Here's the link

http://www.flickr.com/photos/40196546@N07/
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  #23  
Old 07-07-2009, 03:25 PM
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Cool nice bass..

First off, on the Morelli, I have a section just for that here. Morelli is a brand that was made in Germany and labeled here, sometimes stamped there. I don't think any of them were ever dated.

On this big boy, I think this is just as described to me by Michael Krahmer (Pollmann) at this past ISB. On the Backs of these old Mittenwald Basses, 2 bars at the bottom, one center and two upper, exactly as your bass shows. The Klotz family was still active I believe into 1800.

May I suggest you send these pics to Pollmann as well and ask Michael what he think of it. He looked at my bass and thought it was Cut. I was told previously that it was wear and not cut. I thought personally that the Bouts were cut slightly. He thinks the bottom and lower corners were cut possibly as well. He has a good eye and knows his past native bass makers.

The upper bouts of your bass are also a bit uneven. That's another possible sign of being cut. The fact that the treble side of the upper bout front and back are sloped slightly more is also a sign that the bass was cut the play the upper positions. Something that was not in vogue when the bass was first made.

I know I mentioned some northern Italian flavor but the Italians have also used a little German flavor from time to time. 3 Italian Basses I currently own (c.1800s, 1919 and 1936) were all made with 'hidden' dovetail neck joints. Unlike the German style in which the the Necks appear to sit on top of the block and then dovetailed into the block, sometimes obviously, the Italians are set in with the Top covering the joint. Only if the Top or back is removed can you see that it is dovetailed.

On my Italians, 2 of 3 have been changed to a mortise joint in restoration ad the 3rd will be as well. My Big Bass had a dovetail as well but the neck was not original to the block. On one of my Italians, the Neck was secondary as well and still dovetail. The Dovetail has been used everywhere at one time or another so that in itself is not a definite sign of origin. I assume personally that the dovetail came from cabinet making and many makers of basses did as well. Not all bass makers were trained violin makers either. Also, some trained makers may have believed the dovetail was better with the neck itself extending along the back behind the block as well. That style I was told is Mittenwald, old school like Klotz. M.Klotz the eldest Mittenwald maker trained with a Fussen maker that had settled in Padua Italy. Maybe we are looking at modified Fussen school when we look at Mittenwald. I have seen only one Fussen Bass that was very old, maybe 17th century and it easily passed for Italian. Fussen may be the birth place of the blockless bass as well.

We spend so much time rather the violin and bass world on studying the Italians, French and English that the souther German and Tirol makers rarely get a mention. Maybe this is because their better work has passed as Italian in the trade!
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  #24  
Old 07-08-2009, 09:00 AM
Jeff Campbell Jeff Campbell is offline
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Thanks Ken,

I'll contact the Michael. Do you an email address? Also, I posted some photos of my Morelli bass on the link you sent. If you have a minute, would love for you to take a look.

Thanks,

JC
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  #25  
Old 07-08-2009, 11:43 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Campbell View Post
Thanks Ken,

I'll contact the Michael. Do you an email address? Also, I posted some photos of my Morelli bass on the link you sent. If you have a minute, would love for you to take a look.

Thanks,

JC
I got this from their website; info@poellmann-contrabass.de

I saw the Morelli and made my comments. Nice bass as well.
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  #26  
Old 07-13-2009, 02:04 PM
Michael Glynn Michael Glynn is offline
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There is a picture of a Seitz bass with rounded lower corners towards the bottom of this page. Again, probably a little late for what you are looking for. Of course, that page also show the famous "Bussetto" formerly belonging to Rainier Zepperitz.

As I've mentioned on that "other" bass site, I believe the rounded lower corners and f-hole designs on that instrument are derived from the viola d'amore family. Another thread here showed a bass by Woodbury and Burditt that also shows some of these more exaggerated viola d'amore type features (for example, compare it to this viola d'amore), but with standard f-holes. This bass makes me wonder if at least part of the inspiration for the rounded lower corners on many early American basses came from true viola d'amore style instruments, rather than simply Mittenwald basses with rounded lower corners. Here is a modern reproduction of a violone made in Nuremberg in 1640 with strong viola d'amore features as another comparison to the Woodbury and Burditt instrument.

Incidentally, while looking up some stuff on Woodbury and Burditt (and it seems their basses may have been actually made by William Conant) I found this interesting notice from the "Fourth Exhibition of the Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association" in 1844, mentioning a musicial instrument competition that included instruments from Woodbury and Burditt, Prescott, Dearborn and others. This notice from their first exhibition in 1837 mentions basses and cellos by Prescott, the Dearborns, J.B. Allen, and Henry Prentiss. It also mentions that, regarding the basses and cellos:
"They have been constructed upon such models of instruments of foreign manufacture, as the makers chanced to meet with; and, where these models have been departed from, the changes have all been made without reference to any other use of the instrument, than as mere accompaniment to the voices in common psalmody."

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  #27  
Old 07-13-2009, 03:04 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Glynn View Post
There is a picture of a Seitz bass with rounded lower corners towards the bottom of this page. Again, probably a little late for what you are looking for. Of course, that page also show the famous "Bussetto" formerly belonging to Rainier Zepperitz.

As I've mentioned on that "other" bass site, I believe the rounded lower corners and f-hole designs on that instrument are derived from the viola d'amore family. Another thread here showed a bass by Woodbury and Burditt that also shows some of these more exaggerated viola d'amore type features (for example, compare it to this viola d'amore), but with standard f-holes. This bass makes me wonder if at least part of the inspiration for the rounded lower corners on many early American basses came from true viola d'amore style instruments, rather than simply Mittenwald basses with rounded lower corners. Here is a modern reproduction of a violone made in Nuremberg in 1640 with strong viola d'amore features as another comparison to the Woodbury and Burditt instrument.

Incidentally, while looking up some stuff on Woodbury and Burditt (and it seems their basses may have been actually made by William Conant) I found this interesting notice from the "Fourth Exhibition of the Massachusetts Charitable Mechanic Association" in 1844, mentioning a musicial instrument competition that included instruments from Woodbury and Burditt, Prescott, Dearborn and others. This notice from their first exhibition in 1837 mentions basses and cellos by Prescott, the Dearborns, J.B. Allen, and Henry Prentiss. It also mentions that, regarding the basses and cellos:
"They have been constructed upon such models of instruments of foreign manufacture, as the makers chanced to meet with; and, where these models have been departed from, the changes have all been made without reference to any other use of the instrument, than as mere accompaniment to the voices in common psalmody."

First off, I have copied the American text references and copied them to my History of the American Bass thread for others to see there.

Now on the two basses from Japan you post I have seen them several times. I even went as far to ask Michael Krahmer of Pollmann face to face at the ISB to ask why he/they use the term 'Busseto/Bussetto/Busetto (pick your spelling). The maker G.M. del B. came from the town of Busseto in Italy. I even started a thread about the use of this name Busseto as well in the Forum. Michael told me it was because of this bass pictured that his father Gunther believes to be real.

In the Raymon Elgar books of the 1960's he revers to this as 'lower rounded corner' and nothing more. Somewhere this bass showed up and the old violin/lute maker G.M. del Busseto is suddenly a bass maker!

Look carefully at the upper and lower bouts of that bass? Klotz school from Mittenwald ALL the way in my eyes. I think that bass is an old German bass from Mittenwald or that area and has nothing to do with Italy. The form is nothing like anything ever seen from Italy and this maker is not known for making anything within the larger instruments.

So, in my mind, both the Seitz and this so called Bussetto Bass are from the same school of making with maybe a century or so between them.

Just my opinion.
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  #28  
Old 07-13-2009, 07:17 PM
Michael Glynn Michael Glynn is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
First off, I have copied the American text references and copied them to my History of the American Bass thread for others to see there.

Now on the two basses from Japan you post I have seen them several times. I even went as far to ask Michael Krahmer of Pollmann face to face at the ISB to ask why he/they use the term 'Busseto/Bussetto/Busetto (pick your spelling). The maker G.M. del B. came from the town of Busseto in Italy. I even started a thread about the use of this name Busseto as well in the Forum. Michael told me it was because of this bass pictured that his father Gunther believes to be real.

In the Raymon Elgar books of the 1960's he revers to this as 'lower rounded corner' and nothing more. Somewhere this bass showed up and the old violin/lute maker G.M. del Busseto is suddenly a bass maker!

Look carefully at the upper and lower bouts of that bass? Klotz school from Mittenwald ALL the way in my eyes. I think that bass is an old German bass from Mittenwald or that area and has nothing to do with Italy. The form is nothing like anything ever seen from Italy and this maker is not known for making anything within the larger instruments.

So, in my mind, both the Seitz and this so called Bussetto Bass are from the same school of making with maybe a century or so between them.

Just my opinion.
Thanks for posting those references to the other thread. I just ran across that stuff and thought it was interesting to hear what people of their own time thought of those instruments.

I'm with you on the origins of the supposed "Bussetto" bass. I just noticed that the Viola d'amore Society of America says the viola d'amore first appeared around Munich, Salzburg, and Bohemia and only later appeared in Italy. Looking at a random selection of violas d'amore, it seems the vast majority of the old makers had German names, which would seem to support the theory of the German origin and production of that type of instrument. And of course, Mittenwald is quite close to Munich and Salzburg, so it isn't surprising to see some of the design elements I would associate with the viola d'amore in instruments from Mittenwald.

It looks like in your conversation with Michael Krahmer you have helped confirm what I have long suspected--that the entire reason we call rounded lower corners "busseto" corners comes from the very suspect attribution of that one old bass.

Do you have any idea why that bass would have been attributed to Busseto in the first place? Does it share any features with his known instruments?
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  #29  
Old 07-13-2009, 07:42 PM
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Cool Busetto, the maker

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Glynn View Post
Thanks for posting those references to the other thread. I just ran across that stuff and thought it was interesting to hear what people of their own time thought of those instruments.

I'm with you on the origins of the supposed "Bussetto" bass. I just noticed that the Viola d'amore Society of America says the viola d'amore first appeared around Munich, Salzburg, and Bohemia and only later appeared in Italy. Looking at a random selection of violas d'amore, it seems the vast majority of the old makers had German names, which would seem to support the theory of the German origin and production of that type of instrument. And of course, Mittenwald is quite close to Munich and Salzburg, so it isn't surprising to see some of the design elements I would associate with the viola d'amore in instruments from Mittenwald.

It looks like in your conversation with Michael Krahmer you have helped confirm what I have long suspected--that the entire reason we call rounded lower corners "busseto" corners comes from the very suspect attribution of that one old bass.

Do you have any idea why that bass would have been attributed to Busseto in the first place? Does it share any features with his known instruments?
I have no clue or answers to this or why or when. Just that when I look at that bass, the bouts and style without the lower corners or sound holes, I see the word GERMAN loud and clear. I have seen a few instruments in books by the real maker Busetto. These I recall were Violins. I will have to look again to see if there were any other small instruments. Looking though at Busetto's work, style, varnish, etc. I have no idea how his name was ever associated with this bass other than a bass that needed a name to fit a price point.

How many German and non-Italian Basses have we seen mis-named as Italians. Also, not ONLY Italian but the MOST famous names possible. Sounds like dealer tampering if you ask me.

I am not saying that this so called Busetto is not a great bass. Maybe it is the best sounding bass ever heard. It just doesn't make it Italian. Remember, Stainer who is from northwest Austria just below Germany reportedly trained with the Amati family. Mathias Klotz reportedly trained with Stainer and also a Fussen maker that was working in Italy. Then Klotz returned to Mittenwald and founded the school of Violin making there. That is some high class associations if you ask me. With those credentials I would expect his work and that of his followers to be of a high order if so desired. There are many appreciated Italian makers who had less of an association at their start so being German is not a crime, just a fact.

These big German basses from Mittenwald can stand up to just about any Italian Bass in a professional Orchestra from what I have heard and seen. Remember, those powerful sounding Orchestras of the 19th century were not Italian, English or French. They were from Germany and Central Europe. I once heard that if in the 18th or 19th century you wanted to play good music, you were told to go to Vienna! This is how many of the Italian Violins found their way to Vienna and how some of the makers learned about them. I have also read that the English learned a lot about Orchestra basses from visiting Orchestra and seeing the big German 4-stringers when the English were still playing on 3-strings.

.. I guess because there was no Internet back then or 'Ken's Corner', you had to wait for a visit from outside your area to learn of these things if not travel yourself to see it.
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  #30  
Old 07-16-2009, 12:04 AM
Jeff Campbell Jeff Campbell is offline
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Default Basses in the Orchestra

I agree Ken. I sit between a fabulous Gagliano and Ventepane bass in the Rochester Philharmonic played by two wonderful and seasoned bassists and my old Mittenwald bass keeps pace with these two Italian instruments. Between the three of us in the back row of the section, we put out a lot of sound. And it's not a matter of volume but quality and depth of sound.
Like the Mittenwald basses discussed here, both these Italian basses are perfled in the front but NOT in the back. They are Gamba shape with flat backs. The Ventapane has a 44 inch string length and the player has the same bridge that came with the bass in the late 1960s when there were still gut strings on the bass. Both have been cut down.
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  #31  
Old 07-16-2009, 12:22 AM
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Originally Posted by Jeff Campbell View Post
I agree Ken. I sit between a fabulous Gagliano and Ventepane bass in the Rochester Philharmonic played by two wonderful and seasoned bassists and my old Mittenwald bass keeps pace with these two Italian instruments. Between the three of us in the back row of the section, we put out a lot of sound. And it's not a matter of volume but quality and depth of sound.
Like the Mittenwald basses discussed here, both these Italian basses are perfled in the front but NOT in the back. They are Gamba shape with flat backs. The Ventapane has a 44 inch string length and the player has the same bridge that came with the bass in the late 1960s when there were still gut strings on the bass. Both have been cut down.
Nice story there Jeff. I wish more Orchestra Pros like yourself would come up and Post.

I think that it was not all that uncommon for makers to leave off the Purfling on the Back or in some cases like my Martini, front and back are without. The deep edges make one think there is something there but just a bevel line at the bead. Basses like these big Gambas whether Italian, Mittenwald or English have a lot in common. My Big Gamba is believed to be all 3 origins depending on who you ask and for good reason. It resembles a bit of each style. Who or where it was made will remain a mystery but for me, if the sound is there, then you can just sit back, relaxe and enjoy the ride..
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  #32  
Old 10-17-2009, 07:30 PM
Joel Larsson Joel Larsson is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
The BIG old German Basses from Mittenwald made 150 years ago and before, where are they?
Here's one just barely being old enough: http://www.kontrabass.ch/c_cms/baess...iner-1859.html
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  #33  
Old 10-17-2009, 07:51 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Joel Larsson View Post
Here's one just barely being old enough: http://www.kontrabass.ch/c_cms/baess...iner-1859.html
Yes, but that's the tail end of the era I was looking for. I think I have seen a few of those basses and that would be a good period because of the growth of the modern orchestras in which they needed them. The Basses I was looking for were the BIG ones that were even used as only 3-stringers just for the lower notes and were later converted to 4 and even cut down in size possibly.

There are MANY makers within each of these families of Neuner and Hornsteiner but there seems to have been a factory of sorts with that name way back into the 18th century from what I have read. Only a few of them were ever involved with basses as Violins was and always is the main focus of these shops.

Still, thanks for posting.
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  #34  
Old 12-06-2009, 04:13 PM
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so, what do you think about this one:
http://www.geba-online.de/marktplatz...e_id=0&id=4616
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  #35  
Old 12-06-2009, 06:42 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke View Post
so, what do you think about this one:
http://www.geba-online.de/marktplatz...e_id=0&id=4616
Mittenwald or maybe even Bozen-Bolzano/Alban-Albani school. Looks a bit Italian to me as well. This is the ad. What does it say, Fussen school bass?
Quote:
Der fünf-saitige Kontrabaß,
Anfang des neunzehnten Jahrhunderts von einem unbekannten Meister, vermutlich im Füssener Raum gebaut, zeichnet sich durch seinen vollen, tragfähigen Klang und seine leichte Ansprache aus.
Seine ästhetische Form macht es zu einem Schmuckstück.
Das Instrument wurde 1994 von Bernhard Kort(Berlin)komplett restauriert und befindet sich in einem excelenten Zustand.
Es wurde seit 1993 durchgehend im Orchester der Deutschen Oper Berlin gespielt.
Auch im Bayreuther Festspielorchester, im Berliner Philharmonischen Orchester und in der Staatskapelle Dresden kam es zum Einsatz.
D-Mensur 106 cm, gesamte Höhe 187 cm
Preis: 38.500€
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  #36  
Old 12-07-2009, 04:27 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Mittenwald or maybe even Bozen-Bolzano/Alban-Albani school. Looks a bit Italian to me as well. This is the ad. What does it say, Fussen school bass?
i says:
early 19th century
unknown maker, probably füssen school,
1994 complete restaurated at bernhard kort, berlin http://www.kort-basses.com/?set_language=de excellent condition
was played in berlin philharmonic, german opera berlin, bayreuth, stattskapelle dresden
scale length 106cm, 187 cm tall, 38.500€

i like it, but: what else could you get for 38.500?
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  #37  
Old 12-07-2009, 05:19 AM
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Cool $?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke View Post
i says:
early 19th century
unknown maker, probably füssen school,
1994 complete restaurated at bernhard kort, berlin http://www.kort-basses.com/?set_language=de excellent condition
was played in berlin philharmonic, german opera berlin, bayreuth, stattskapelle dresden
scale length 106cm, 187 cm tall, 38.500€

i like it, but: what else could you get for 38.500?
That's getting close to $60k. Plenty but depending on the sound, it could be a great bass. I think that price is high for over here. If it were English or Italian then maybe but who knows.. Someone will buy it.
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  #38  
Old 12-07-2009, 05:28 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
That's getting close to $60k. Plenty but depending on the sound, it could be a great bass. I think that price is high for over here. If it were English or Italian then maybe but who knows.. Someone will buy it.
it looks like a good sounding bass...

i am not sure if the f-holes are typical füssen, but what is typical füssen...
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  #39  
Old 04-30-2010, 02:07 PM
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Cool where are they?

Well, I have one here, just in and will post pics soon. Estimated to be c.1860 Mittenwald. Also, I might see one tomorrow on a gig as one of the Subs might have one but I don't know who is all playing yet till I get there at the dress rehearsal.
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  #40  
Old 05-08-2010, 06:44 PM
Jeff Campbell Jeff Campbell is offline
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Default Another Mittenwald Bass

Hello,

Almost a year ago I made several posts about my old Mittenwald bass. Recently, I came across another bass that looks very much like mine. Just for interest, here are a couple of photos of both basses side by side - mine is on the left.
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