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  #21  
Old 07-13-2009, 01:53 PM
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Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
The measurements I concern myself with are the overstand and the bridge height. If the bass has broad shoulders, higher overstand can help a bit with playabilty in "no-man's land" and thumb position. Too high and you reduce the breakover angle at the bridge too much. The bridge needs to be high enough for adequate bow clearance and top pressure, but not so high as to choke the sound, or cause the player fatigue in the bow arm. I don't believe the angle of the back to the scroll is relevant, because basses have all kinds of back tapers. Some have a constant taper from endblock to neck. Some have no taper until the upper bout. Some have a little taper at the bottom and then more in the upper bout (mine). And then there are some with no taper at all.
Arnold, how about angle/pitch-back of fingerboard to body? Is this all done with the bridge height in mind?

I have had basses with 6" tall bridges that cleared wide c-bouts and others at 6.5" that barely cleared the bouts of a similar size. Is the top arch something that is added in the formula here. How about overall bout shape and corner types? Also, where the bridge lays in proportion to all of this, the end of the fingerboard and where you play/bow the bass is an equal factor of concern as well, would you agree?

With such a variation in the overall sizes and designs of basses I see that no two basses can be compared with so many variables to consider. I guess just playing them one by one and prescribing the steps for improvement is what's needed on a case-by-case or rather bass-by-bass situation.

Also, I just thought of this. The arch of the bridge and the height of the outer strings (G and E) from the body/top and not the center of the bridge are most important here. The fingerboard curve as well needs to match the proper bridge curve as well. I can't tell you how many basses I have played that everything was fine in the neck area but due to bridge and fingerboard issues played poorly.
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  #22  
Old 07-13-2009, 05:33 PM
Pino Cazzaniga Pino Cazzaniga is offline
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Default SL

Also, while making a neck graft the string lenght is to consider.
A longer SL move backwards the middle and high positions.
It help when the bass has long body stop, wide shoulders and-or wide outline at the neck block.
A limit is the stretching of the hand, more in first position.
And, if the instument has a little rib height at the neck a longer heel may be not so nice aesthetically.
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  #23  
Old 07-13-2009, 06:09 PM
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Question ok..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pino Cazzaniga View Post
Also, while making a neck graft the string lenght is to consider.
A longer SL move backwards the middle and high positions.
It help when the bass has long body stop, wide shoulders and-or wide outline at the neck block.
A limit is the stretching of the hand, more in first position.
And, if the instrument has a little rib height at the neck a longer heel may be not so nice aesthetically.
Interesting but here in USA we try to play at 42" or less in the SL. I did play one bass used here in an orchestra that was not only an Eb neck but over 42". When I questioned the player he replied "I like it that way". So there, different tastes.

Pino, you are in Italy so I assume you know your Italians. How close to a real Maggini Bass does my Hart/Maggini look like? I mean the shape, back bend, FFs and Scroll. It is the easiset bass for me to play that I have now of 4 good basses in my rack. Not the best tone as they are all good and individual but the best I can play in-tune up and down the neck. I think it is the neck-to-body design and the Eb that makes this one the easiest for me. What do you think Pino?
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  #24  
Old 07-14-2009, 01:05 AM
Pino Cazzaniga Pino Cazzaniga is offline
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Default Hart!

I'm sure that the maker drawed his inspiration from Maggini, as the body outline look so similar at a first glance.
But, also, he made an instrument of his own,for the musicians of his century.
He did not intended to make a copy.
Somehow, he took his pleasure from the past he like, and made something new.
At a second glance, the bottom bouts of the Hart are more rounded, the C bouts more long and open, the body stop moved downward ( in Maggini the stop is near the center ).
The rib height of Maggini is huge ( mm230, a bit more than 9 inches ), almost parallel till the bent.
The ff holes are sloped to follow the C bouts outline, with little wings and far enough from the center.
The bigger instruments of Maggini are shorter than the Hart.
Probably a real Maggini would be not so comfortable as the Hart is, for the narrower C bouts.
In fact, the Maggini instruments were probably made to be played like viols, mostly at the neck and with 5 or 6 strings.
The Hart is, for sure, a double bass.
I can't know why you feel easy to play with him, probably there is a good ratio SL/body stop/bridge height/neck overheight/Eb neck/shoulders outline etc
Also, maybe the balance you found matches your own body.
I'm sure that anything was done to put the bass at his best with the sound.
So my hope, if you will play the Hart for some time, is that you will achieve the "it" for that one instrument, to let him play the way you like.
Sometimes is just habit, inconscious movements, little changes...

As a viol player asked me for a little size violone, I probably will make a Maggini model soon. He said "I need deep sound and fundamentals".
Coincidences?
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  #25  
Old 07-14-2009, 01:08 AM
Calvin Marks Calvin Marks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pino Cazzaniga View Post
As a viol player asked me for a little size violone, I probably will make a Maggini model soon. He said "I need deep sound and fundamentals".
Coincidences?
A violone with a deep sound and fundamentals? Perhaps he should reconsider what instrument he actually wants...Violones are built extremely thin and aren't meant to sound like a double bass. Very low neck angle, low bridges, super low tension.
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  #26  
Old 07-14-2009, 07:15 AM
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Smile wow..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Pino Cazzaniga View Post
I'm sure that the maker drawed his inspiration from Maggini, as the body outline look so similar at a first glance.
But, also, he made an instrument of his own,for the musicians of his century.
He did not intended to make a copy.
Somehow, he took his pleasure from the past he like, and made something new.
At a second glance, the bottom bouts of the Hart are more rounded, the C bouts more long and open, the body stop moved downward ( in Maggini the stop is near the center ).
The rib height of Maggini is huge ( mm230, a bit more than 9 inches ), almost parallel till the bent.
The ff holes are sloped to follow the C bouts outline, with little wings and far enough from the center.
The bigger instruments of Maggini are shorter than the Hart.
Probably a real Maggini would be not so comfortable as the Hart is, for the narrower C bouts.
In fact, the Maggini instruments were probably made to be played like viols, mostly at the neck and with 5 or 6 strings.
The Hart is, for sure, a double bass.
I can't know why you feel easy to play with him, probably there is a good ratio SL/body stop/bridge height/neck overheight/Eb neck/shoulders outline etc
Also, maybe the balance you found matches your own body.
I'm sure that anything was done to put the bass at his best with the sound.
So my hope, if you will play the Hart for some time, is that you will achieve the "it" for that one instrument, to let him play the way you like.
Sometimes is just habit, inconscious movements, little changes...

As a viol player asked me for a little size violone, I probably will make a Maggini model soon. He said "I need deep sound and fundamentals".
Coincidences?
Pino, thank you very much for the observation and professional opinion. At first I was less comfortable overall with this bass over the Gilkes or Martini but one time when playing thru the basses I asked my son for his opinion and he too by my surprise picked the Hart for me. I said "really, the Hart?". He replied "yeah Dad, you play the most comfortably on that one but do what you want". That was over a year ago. The few concerts I took the Hart out for I felt the added reach across the bouts to the neck so that in itself took my attention for the most part. When standing however, when adjusted to the correct height (for me) the Hart is the easiest bass to 'hit' all the notes. The Hart will now see a lot more action now that I've had the time to better test and compare what is overall easiest for me to play.

Best of luck with your Violone project. When you can, please share some pictures of your work with us. It can be this Violone coming up or anything else you have including repairs. Thanks again..
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  #27  
Old 07-14-2009, 04:35 PM
Pino Cazzaniga Pino Cazzaniga is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin Marks View Post
A violone with a deep sound and fundamentals? Perhaps he should reconsider what instrument he actually wants...Violones are built extremely thin and aren't meant to sound like a double bass. Very low neck angle, low bridges, super low tension.

Calvin,
Duane Rosengard wrote a book, “Cremonese double basses”, where I read, from Stephen Bonta,
that Gasparo “Bertulotti” was paid 35 lire to play the “Violone” during the Mass in Bergamo.
The word “Violone” is confusing itself.
From 1550 to 1750 it meant:
the bass viol
any gamba viol
any bass instrument, viol or violin family, cello or double bass register.
What I'm interested in now are the Maggini instruments.
They show a similar body outline of the (his contemporary) Praetorius
“Gros viol de gamba, italis violono oder contrabasso de gamba”.
Are they gamba instruments?
Yes, they are tuned in fourths with a middle third, have flat bented back, frets, 5 or 6 strings, huge rib height.
No, they have F holes, violin corners, high shoulders, wired tailpiece.
At the turn of the century they made new hibrid bass instruments to reach the low register of the organ. Longer than before.
So the strings were thicker, at least to allow the bowing. This increased the tension.
And, the metal wound strings were not available.
So the last strings were really thick.
Thick gut strings are good for the fundamental tone, as they loose harmonics.
I think they discovered the warmth of the low register, and I bet that they were astonished.
This is another thread to talk, anyway, if I will agree with the musician for this work.
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  #28  
Old 07-14-2009, 06:04 PM
Calvin Marks Calvin Marks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pino Cazzaniga View Post
Calvin,
Duane Rosengard wrote a book, “Cremonese double basses”, where I read, from Stephen Bonta,
that Gasparo “Bertulotti” was paid 35 lire to play the “Violone” during the Mass in Bergamo.
The word “Violone” is confusing itself.
From 1550 to 1750 it meant:
the bass viol
any gamba viol
any bass instrument, viol or violin family, cello or double bass register.
What I'm interested in now are the Maggini instruments.
They show a similar body outline of the (his contemporary) Praetorius
“Gros viol de gamba, italis violono oder contrabasso de gamba”.
Are they gamba instruments?
Yes, they are tuned in fourths with a middle third, have flat bented back, frets, 5 or 6 strings, huge rib height.
No, they have F holes, violin corners, high shoulders, wired tailpiece.
At the turn of the century they made new hibrid bass instruments to reach the low register of the organ. Longer than before.
So the strings were thicker, at least to allow the bowing. This increased the tension.
And, the metal wound strings were not available.
So the last strings were really thick.
Thick gut strings are good for the fundamental tone, as they loose harmonics.
I think they discovered the warmth of the low register, and I bet that they were astonished.
This is another thread to talk, anyway, if I will agree with the musician for this work.
If you're interested in Maggini, I can help you. Tafelmusik gave me their G-Violone which is a copy of the Dolmetch Collection Maggini, perhaps the most famous Violone that Maggini made. This instrument has all the original measurements as Grunert made the copy, except the neck angle and bridge height are incorrect.
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  #29  
Old 07-18-2009, 10:10 PM
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Cool back on topic..

Ok guys, I know it sounds like I can't make up my mind but the truth of the matter is.. that's a good possibility.. lol

As you may have heard before, I always fall back to the Martini as if it's my 'default' bass. Well, it seems that it is. It is the one that fits me best followed by the Gilkes. This is body-to-bass fit mainly. The heel issue of D or Eb is secondary I believe. The bass has to fit my body first. No bass is ever perfect for everything I guess. There will always be something you find fault with in your own personal instrument whether it be a string, a wolf or what have you.

I went back and forth all week playing the 4 basses and although the big Gamba spits the notes out like no other and the Hart has the best Eb Heel-to-Thumb position, the Martini is just easier for me to play overall. If it had the Hart Eb Heel area and the massive sound of the Gamba or the round power of the Gilkes, it would be awesome. But, it doesn't. It probably puts out about 10-20% less sound in one way or another than the other 3 basses.

Now this is not like I am picking a weak bass. To the contrary, a friend of mine has a fantastic English Hawkes Panormo that I helped him acquire. The word was that in the Orchestra it was in before, that Hawkes Panormo was considered unstoppable in the section.

A few weeks ago we A-B'd the massive English Hawkes and the Martini side by side. The Martini beat it hands down regardless of which one of us was playing it. Also, at the ISB while someone was pounding away on the Gamba bass, another person was playing the Martini beside it. The Martini cut right thru the middle of the Gamba as if it bore a hole thru its sound. The Gamba was much louder overall and with more spread but the Martini was sweet and focused and would not take second place in the sound department.

So my personal bass as suggested to me by several others in the past and recently as well will remain the Martini with the Gilkes being my standby when I need more cutting power. The Gilkes is actually louder and rounder sounding than the bigger Gamba bass. Go figure..

I love the Hart and the Gamba sound wise and everything else. They are fantastic basses. They just don't fit me as well personally.

You know, I had a fantastic Prescott and an English Dodd as well that was also more powerful than the Martini. Again, I just didn't play them as well.
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  #30  
Old 07-18-2009, 11:32 PM
Ken McKay Ken McKay is offline
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I love a good http://contrabbassi.it/eng/archivio.html Martini.
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  #31  
Old 07-19-2009, 04:23 AM
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Cool yes, but..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken McKay View Post
That Martini was probably one of his last basses made as he died in 1957. I have seen in person another one like that (not quite as fancy) from around 1946 or so if I recall correctly. On this bass, he was 61 years old when it was made. On mine, he was only about 25-26 years old. He reportedly learned from the great Stefano Scarampella. This was before or around the same time that Gattano Gadda (his only 'recorded' pupil) began training with him. Martini's early basses look quite different than his later ones but look like his hand regardless. I have seen 3 or 4 basses from 1919-1926 and 2 from 1946-1954 as seen above in the link.

Martini was a stout man and a bass player as well, starting his training on the bass at age 14. This bass I have which is his oldest known bass may have been made for himself. The rear back/button carvings are more elaborate than the 1921 and 1926 models I have seen and the ff-eyes on top are wider spaced than another 1926 model that was played years before by a Philly orch. player. The wider eyes allows for a wider bridge and bassbar-soundpost placement resulting in greater depth. The bridge on the Martini is still only about a 155mm size but if it was only able to take a 150, the sound might not be as deep overall.

The Link you show is from Sergio Scaramelli who owned and restored MY Martini back in 1999. He came to the ISB and when looking at 'his' old Martini 10 years later remarked that this was a very early bass for Martini, perhaps the first one made.

I do know this however, if it gets sold anytime soon, it will be missed as I don't have another Bass that feels so comfortable. I do however own TWO cornerless basses, not just the one that you know, the Storioni. The 2nd one was about 42" SL or slightly bigger but a beautiful shape in the shoulders. That Bass could turn out even more comfortable than the Storioni as far as the note reach over the shoulders go. The Storioni has to be shortened from a 44.5" mensur to 42" or less. I haven't shown any pictures of this other bass because it was so far out on the schedule that I didn't want to be answering questions for 2 or 3 years on a bass I had little experience with. Regardless, besides the Martini, the Gilkes is the second most comfortable bass I currently have 'play-ready' but for different reasons. I would go to the Gilkes if the Martini was sold as far as it stands now.
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  #32  
Old 07-19-2009, 09:55 AM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
This is body-to-bass fit mainly. The heel issue of D or Eb is secondary I believe. The bass has to fit my body first.
No small challenge there...
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  #33  
Old 07-19-2009, 10:07 AM
Eric Hochberg Eric Hochberg is offline
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Default Huh?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
I would go to the Gilkes if the Martini was sold as far as it stands now.
Now you've got me confused, why sell the Martini if it's your all around favorite bass?
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  #34  
Old 07-19-2009, 10:14 AM
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Red face lol...

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
No small challenge there...
Arnold, don't forget to add stand-up comedy to your resume..
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  #35  
Old 07-19-2009, 10:25 AM
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Cool huh..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg View Post
Now you've got me confused, why sell the Martini if it's your all around favorite bass?
You're confused? lol

Well, it is the favorite amongst those 4 listed and all the others are in restoration. The differences, pluses and minuses are all slight between them. They are just all different.

I could live with any of the basses if I only had one. These are all basically inventory since I started collecting and dealing again like I did back in the 1970s & '80s. It is very possible that one of the Cornerless basses will fit me even better if not one of the others I have out in repair. I also have a modern English Bass that is both a joy to play as well as listen too. If all of the big ticket stuff sells, then I would get a C-extension and it and use that one.

So you see, my dilemma is more of, which one 'in the store' suits me best because I keep switching day in and day out and it's starting to get confusing. These basses I mention are quite different from one another so each require some getting used to.
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  #36  
Old 07-19-2009, 10:33 AM
Eric Hochberg Eric Hochberg is offline
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Thumbs up

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
You're confused? lol

Well, it is the favorite amongst those 4 listed and all the others are in restoration. The differences, pluses and minuses are all slight between them. They are just all different.

I could live with any of the basses if I only had one.

So you see, my dilemma is more of, which one 'in the store' suits me best because I keep switching day in and day out and it's starting to get confusing. These basses I mention are quite different from one another so each require some getting used to.
Are these basses or women? What would Freud say? Ken, is there a local chapter of bass addicts anonymous near you? Bass promiscuity!!!
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  #37  
Old 07-19-2009, 01:10 PM
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Talking

Quote:
Originally Posted by eric hochberg View Post
are these basses or women? What would freud say? Ken, is there a local chapter of bass addicts anonymous near you? Bass promiscuity!!!
lol!!!! Too funny.
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  #38  
Old 07-19-2009, 05:29 PM
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Smile lol..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg View Post
Are these basses or women? What would Freud say? Ken, is there a local chapter of bass addicts anonymous near you? Bass promiscuity!!!
Also, on top of all that, it depends on what music I am playing. For Jazz, it might be none of the above so I am strictly talking Orchestra basses here.

Look, come over and buy 3 of the 4 basses listed above. Then I wont have a choice..
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Old 07-22-2009, 03:29 PM
Joel Larsson Joel Larsson is offline
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Default what I look for in a bass...

When I bought my 1982 Pöllmann, it was mainly a question of availability. As a student without car, and in a country with a lot of distance between each bass for sale, I couldn't be too picky. In fact, in order to get a loan for "extra studying material" you had to take the loan during the first half of your studies - within 1,5 or two years. So I borrowed this one from my teacher, and I didn't even really like it - looking back, I didn't even know anything about basses back then! - but at least I realised that it was probably the most bass I could get for my bucks.

I love it more and more. It's sounding better and better, and that's not just my playing. I can take it to any gig and it will do, it's failry sturdy as opposed to some frail old basses which feel like they might fall into pieces (this one hasn't even had a crack!) and it sounds good from top to bottom. I hope I'll be able to keep it throughout my life, but it's not my 'ultimate' bass. The body is larger than the scale might imply, and so the shoulders are a bit too high, and I also feel that it could be easier to reach properly into the E string. Which is where I almost wish I had played French bow...

So, what I'd want in my next bass is basically improved playability. The shoulders are less much of a problem. Of course, I'd be looking into an older bass, for the sound, and hopefully that feeling that somebody has already been playing this bass properly for ages. Actually, there is this bass that I can't get out of my head... the Swedish one over at the Contrabass Shoppe. What's probably the best sounding Swedish built bass (possibly along with a Johan Öberg of the 1700s) just shouldn't have left the country. My teacher went over there to try out some basses, and he also remarked that I should have that bass. Unfortunately, we are talking £50k, and that means debt until retirement, even if I could get a loan...
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  #40  
Old 07-22-2009, 08:57 PM
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Cool £50k?

This Bass here is £50k? http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2693.htm , The Brock.

That's about $80k U$D depending on the day and rate. Actually, my Martini is in the same range and age almost. I saw a few other Italian basses of a similar age at the ISB that were actually priced quite higher. Gee, maybe my Martini is too low. The classic looking Brock sounds like a great bass and looks great too.

On your Pollmann, I know exactly what you mean. I have owned 3 of them personally and the last was the best I think and the youngest as well. They do a good job in the Orchestra but if you desire that older sweeter mature complex tone, you will have to look further for it I think.

On the Brock bass, you will notice the Krutz tuners on it. I showed Tony Houske my Gilkes pics one day and he came back asking where he could get tuners like those. Well, now we know he got them and put them on a fine bass no doubt. I have them on my Martini as well.
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