Ken's Corner (Bass Forums Sponsored By KSB)

Go Back   Ken's Corner (Bass Forums Sponsored By KSB) > Double Basses > This New Bass > Plywoods And Hybrids

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #41  
Old 04-03-2007, 06:17 PM
Jeff Gellis's Avatar
Jeff Gellis Jeff Gellis is offline
Junior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-27-2007
Location: Rutherford NJ
Posts: 17
Jeff Gellis is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Clinkingbeard View Post
Let's keep this place open and free where we can all agree to disagree. Time for a beer.
There exists an air of civility here that TB could only dream about. Great reparte!
__________________
Play the Right Sheet and Make it Groove
Reply With Quote
  #42  
Old 04-03-2007, 06:24 PM
Greg Clinkingbeard Greg Clinkingbeard is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-21-2007
Location: Prairie Village, KS(Kansas City)
Posts: 98
Greg Clinkingbeard is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Case View Post
The problem is the marketing is superior to the product. And it's gotten to the point at TBDB where a person can't ask about or give an opinion about a bass with out Upton getting defensive. There have been threads in the basses section over there where the Upton people didn't even answer specific questions asked by an original poster. When I challenged this it turned into a big flame war. The days of getting good advice about purchasing an instrument at TBDB are over, unless you are ONLY interested in an Upton bass.
I agree with you, and I must admit that I have been in the middle of a couple of those flame wars, but those days are over. I will have to disagree with you regarding the marketing. Their basses are worth the money and I would and have put my bass up against much more expensive instruments without embarrassment. However, there are many other choices in the price range of an Upton meriting consideration and to pretend that an Upton is the best bass on the market is folly. Good bass for the money and a solid value? IMO yes.
Reply With Quote
  #43  
Old 04-03-2007, 06:28 PM
Greg Clinkingbeard Greg Clinkingbeard is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-21-2007
Location: Prairie Village, KS(Kansas City)
Posts: 98
Greg Clinkingbeard is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Case View Post

I feel you, personally ..........
You'll need to buy me a beer first.
Reply With Quote
  #44  
Old 04-03-2007, 06:31 PM
Michael Case's Avatar
Michael Case Michael Case is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-23-2007
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 40
Michael Case is on a distinguished road
Default

I don't disagree with your assessment of Upton's basses, they are damn fine instruments for the bread.
__________________
"Buy the ticket, take the ride."
Hunter S. Thompson

Myspace
Reply With Quote
  #45  
Old 04-03-2007, 06:32 PM
Michael Case's Avatar
Michael Case Michael Case is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-23-2007
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 40
Michael Case is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Greg Clinkingbeard View Post
You'll need to buy me a beer first.
I guess the bass player thing wont work on you eh?
__________________
"Buy the ticket, take the ride."
Hunter S. Thompson

Myspace
Reply With Quote
  #46  
Old 04-03-2007, 06:33 PM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Lightbulb Bravo!!!

Quote:
Originally Posted by Michael Case View Post
The problem is the marketing is superior to the product. And it's gotten to the point at TBDB where a person can't ask about or give an opinion about a bass with out Upton getting defensive. There have been threads in the basses section over there where the Upton people didn't even answer specific questions asked by an original poster. When I challenged this it turned into a big flame war. The days of getting good advice about purchasing an instrument at TBDB are over, unless you are ONLY interested in an Upton bass.

Thank you for shedding light from another pair of eyes other than mine.

To Jeff, in a Microsoft thing, they don't BUY the media and have them shut the rest of the competition up when they speak like TB does being his own 'Junk Yard Dog'. TB Refused to sell me advertising because as they Put it, Upton OWNS all the available bandwidth.

In the real world, this is known as 'anti-trust' tactics.

"Even a broken clock is right twice a day!"
Reply With Quote
  #47  
Old 04-03-2007, 06:40 PM
Michael Case's Avatar
Michael Case Michael Case is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-23-2007
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 40
Michael Case is on a distinguished road
Default

There are some more shadier marketing tactics that Upton uses. I don't wish to go into it on a public forum, but I know for a fact this is so.
__________________
"Buy the ticket, take the ride."
Hunter S. Thompson

Myspace
Reply With Quote
  #48  
Old 04-03-2007, 06:43 PM
Ron Lacey Ron Lacey is offline
Junior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-22-2007
Location: Aggieland, Texas
Posts: 23
Ron Lacey is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Jeff Gellis View Post
There exists an air of civility here that TB could only dream about. Great reparte!
Yeah, this is pretty disgusting . If you guys don't start some decent flame wars I may have to go talk to my wife.
Reply With Quote
  #49  
Old 04-03-2007, 06:46 PM
Michael Case's Avatar
Michael Case Michael Case is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-23-2007
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 40
Michael Case is on a distinguished road
Default

Flame on:
Why is talking to your wife better than being on this board?
__________________
"Buy the ticket, take the ride."
Hunter S. Thompson

Myspace
Reply With Quote
  #50  
Old 04-03-2007, 09:32 PM
Drake Chan's Avatar
Drake Chan Drake Chan is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-23-2007
Location: Fresh Meadows, NY
Posts: 31
Drake Chan is on a distinguished road
Default

As long as we're being free here, let's not forget that this is Ken's site, and that he will definitely push his products here.

At the same time, there's no pretending here that this is a totally impartial site like TBDB seemed to claim. It was a good site with good information, and it still is. But some things just started to get to me.

There was that whole saga of flaming one another in one of the threads. This has happened at least more than once. Once everything died down, it was better.

But the one thing that really got to me was in the "Strunal vs. Upton" thread.

Within the thread, someone asked whether to get a bass from Upton or a Strunal setup by a local luthier. Now I didn't really know the luthier, but it seems like a few people did and said he did good work. I though at that point that the luthier seemed okay, and I posted that the guy should try both basses (or more) before buying. I think at this point, Michael Case started to challenge Upton.

Anyway, a few posts later, Gary implicitly claimed that one of the posters before who praised the Strunal, with the name "mike" within his username, was really the luthier himself, who also happened to be named Mike, and was posting separately as a shill. At this point, the luthier himself wrote a post in angry, formal letter form in response to Gary and everyone else to try to clear his name.

Eventually, everything calmed down. The "shill" was a kid named Mike who studied with the luthier. People came down to the point of actually trying out the basses before buying.
Reply With Quote
  #51  
Old 04-03-2007, 09:41 PM
Drake Chan's Avatar
Drake Chan Drake Chan is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-23-2007
Location: Fresh Meadows, NY
Posts: 31
Drake Chan is on a distinguished road
Default

In my opinion, the world of Internet forums is no different than the real world in many respects. One respect is that people will form friendships and will be able to speak with each other in an informal, friendly way.

Another respect is that these friendships can become cliques, and that these friends will stick with each other if anyone ever threatens one of them or their ideas. Things can become very contentious if this happens.

So for future references, you could state your own opinion, but it is almost never going to be completely respected and honored unless they are the general opinion of the masses or you are able to defend your opinion successfully and coherently.
Reply With Quote
  #52  
Old 04-03-2007, 10:03 PM
Drake Chan's Avatar
Drake Chan Drake Chan is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-23-2007
Location: Fresh Meadows, NY
Posts: 31
Drake Chan is on a distinguished road
Default

As for Upton Basses, I feel that they are a solid, reputable company. If you call them, they will take the time to talk to you about whatever you have a question about. I remember going up to Mystic once, and talking with one of the luthiers, Jack, for about an hour or so on all sorts of things I wanted to know about the bass. I guess I just like talking about basses, and Jack was very patient.

In this day and age of music companies ripping students and beginners off with crappy instruments, they lend a fresh breath of quality and value in many of the instruments and services they provide.

At the same time, they're business practices are indeed questionable. While they lend this "fresh breath", we must not forget that we have many other options out there. It is never Upton vs. crappy music companies, and no one else.

One example is our host, Ken Smith. This is a man who has done years of research on double basses and bows just because he truly enjoys it. And he sends this knowledge down to us free of charge. He is of strong opinion, but only because he has already done his homework. We double bassists have a hard time finding any information or resources on our instrument that violin players and bass guitarist will easily find.

I went down to Ken's workshop in Perkasie to try out bows once. His shop closed down about 4:30 or so in the afternoon, but I didn't get there till about 4:40. Many employees were still there, but they all eventually left after 5:10 or so. Ken stayed there talking with me until 7:30, well after closing time. He let me try out several basses and bows, taught me how to audition bows, talked about how to play better, and talked about his basses. He even taught me to use the "Italian" grip with the French bow.

But the one thing that stands out was that he was willing to talk to someone he never even met before for hours. As for his bows: his brazilwood bow blew my Upton $99 bow out of the water. I've recommended this bow to any kid that I've seen with a Glasser fiberglass bow.
Reply With Quote
  #53  
Old 04-03-2007, 10:21 PM
Michael Case's Avatar
Michael Case Michael Case is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-23-2007
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 40
Michael Case is on a distinguished road
Default

Hello Drake, I don't really want to get to involved with explaining things so here is the short story. I got into a heated discussion, with a poster who instead of honestly answering questions regarding an opinion about either Upton or ANY other bass all he will do is question an opinion that doesn't support Upton. That is what got to me in the thread you described above.

In another thread a poster located in Ireland asked if people could recommend a bass that was comparable to Upton, but available in Europe (since he didn't think ordering a bass online from the states and having it shipped to Ireland efficient). So I recommenced Strunal as they are a European company. That's when the Upton guy questioned the validity of my recommendation and talking about how he felt Upton basses were superior to Strunals. Yet he never answered the question. It got me angry because that kind of blatant sales tactic is exactly what has ruined TBDB. In the fall out I took some actions that led to me deleting my posts, but also the Upton guy deleting his posts in that thread too.

I'd started another thread that showed some very insight into the advertising tactics of UB it got some reads and replies and led to the Dr. deleting his posts in our heated thread. I deleted the thread I started after about 15 to 20 minutes fearing it may have been inappropriate, but it proved a point in the brief time it existed.

Anyway, I didn't post this to start a war or anything, and I don't wish to go further into detail about my knowledge of UB's sales tactics.
__________________
"Buy the ticket, take the ride."
Hunter S. Thompson

Myspace
Reply With Quote
  #54  
Old 04-04-2007, 01:12 PM
Jeff Gellis's Avatar
Jeff Gellis Jeff Gellis is offline
Junior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-27-2007
Location: Rutherford NJ
Posts: 17
Jeff Gellis is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Thank you for shedding light from another pair of eyes other than mine.

To Jeff, in a Microsoft thing, they don't BUY the media and have them shut the rest of the competition up when they speak like TB does being his own 'Junk Yard Dog'. TB Refused to sell me advertising because as they Put it, Upton OWNS all the available bandwidth.

In the real world, this is known as 'anti-trust' tactics.
You are 100% correct. That reflects badly on TB not Upton, in my opinion. They should encourage advertisers from any reputable source. Shutting out a particular company does not seem right. That's a business decision they feel is profitable for them I guess? Who knows?
In the case of Microsoft they have the goods and infrastructure that no one else really has. In the case of available DBs at this price point, there are a few viable options, and your point is that no competition is possible because of TB willing to sell all ad space to one vendor. I see your point.
__________________
Play the Right Sheet and Make it Groove
Reply With Quote
  #55  
Old 04-04-2007, 04:29 PM
Sam Sherry Sam Sherry is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-22-2007
Location: Portland, Maine
Posts: 53
Sam Sherry is on a distinguished road
Default Upton, TB/DB, The Web . . .

I've watched this thread with interest as it involves so many people I respect.

UPTON BASS:

It's no secret that I'm Gary Upton's pal. I'm also his lawyer (which doesn't matter here. I'm just noting it as "full disclosure." I'm not trying to intimidate anybody. If you feel intimidated by this post you need a better social life.)

Gary's been a real friend and has gone out of his way repeatedly to treat me well. He has treated the people I've referred to him well. One of the things that I most like about Gary is that, like Ken Smith, he's a guy with a healthy dose of ambition about his business. That is a compliment in my eyes and is meant for both of them.

As far as I know, there are several factories in Romania. I don't know which factory builds for Upton and I sure as heck don't know who builds for JR/Ken/lots of others. I don't know that it's the same and I don't know that it's different. Don't assume that Gary's stuff is the same as Ken's, JR's and vice versa even if you discover that it comes from the same factory. If you're buying a bass, do research. Compare. Try to play the bass you're buying if possible. Just because people say it all the time doesn't mean it ain't true.

Rumor has it that there are people who don't like Gary as much as I do. So be it. The same is true of me and just about everybody else I've ever met (with the exception of Paul Warburton). I take it all with a grain of salt. You don't have to. It's the web. Do your research. Form your own conclusions. Be open to change.

TALKBASS.COM

It's also no secret that I used to be a moderator on TB/DB and that one of the main reasons I stopped was dis-satisfaction with the commercial posting policy and commercial activity on the site generally. You can make of that what you will. Chris FitzGerald continues to impress me as a person and as a musician.

My general observation about the site is that things do go in cycles. People come; people learn; people go. Sometimes they fade out and sometimes they leave with a bang. Whatever.

One of the things I REALLY LIKE about Ken's site is that there's a strong chance that people are accurately identified by name. I am a big supporter of the notion that the accuracy and value of online advice is increased when people don't hide behind aliases. Bravo to Ken for doing it right. Bravo to Ken for being upfront about what he thinks and above all for formulating his opinions based on personal experience.

One of the things I don't like about this thread is that I think it's not classy to talk down about another forum. That's my opinion and y'all are free to do whatchya want. As for me, I'm gonna practice . . . .
Reply With Quote
  #56  
Old 04-04-2007, 04:51 PM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Exclamation RE: Sam Sherry...

Very well spoken Sam. I liked and agreed with everything you just said. You are a true Diplomat with often with some 'realism' in your tone.

I DO NOT want to turn this into a bashing either so I say it now; Speak your piece or hold onto it, which ever suits you best BUT don't bash TB or UPTON here.. Please! Discussions are fine about how each person sees things but TB IS the main Worldwide Bass Forum regardless of who agrees.

Maybe the business of TB and Upton has been one sided but that is Paul's house and he can invite whom ever he wants over for dinner and drinks.

On another note in emailing back and forth with Paul during my departure, Paul offered me his help in any way with the 'vBulletin' software if the need ever came. That was a very nice gesture and generous as well especially in the spirit or which I left TB in or lack thereof.

As Sam mentioned, this is a good venue being we use real names here and sets in place a level of Class in the Themes and Conversations. Let's not ruin this by turning it into a verbal brawl against TB or Upton.

On another note, I feel relieved that Sam, Upton's lawyer didn't go legal here.. Wheww.. another narrow escape..

Thank's Sam, you are always welcome here..
Reply With Quote
  #57  
Old 04-04-2007, 04:52 PM
Michael Case's Avatar
Michael Case Michael Case is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-23-2007
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 40
Michael Case is on a distinguished road
Default

As always Sam, spoken like a true gentleman.

This forum inspired me to use my real name over at TB. It really does affect the way you post when your real name is behind it.
__________________
"Buy the ticket, take the ride."
Hunter S. Thompson

Myspace
Reply With Quote
  #58  
Old 04-04-2007, 05:20 PM
Greg Clinkingbeard Greg Clinkingbeard is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-21-2007
Location: Prairie Village, KS(Kansas City)
Posts: 98
Greg Clinkingbeard is on a distinguished road
Default

Very well stated.
People are people and we are flawed in some way or another. While I think it may be reasonable to acknowledge shortcomings or to criticize someones behavior, it should never be done without the admission that we all fall short of the ideal. Ken excepted.

Gotta get ready for my first gig tonight with one of the top Big Bands in town. These guys play some of the hardest *&%^ imaginable including several Maynard Ferguson charts; and that's some of the easier material.
Wish me luck so I don't flame out.
Reply With Quote
  #59  
Old 04-04-2007, 06:11 PM
Michael Case's Avatar
Michael Case Michael Case is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-23-2007
Location: Salt Lake City, Utah
Posts: 40
Michael Case is on a distinguished road
Default

Good luck on your gig. Sounds like it'll be a blast, literally.
__________________
"Buy the ticket, take the ride."
Hunter S. Thompson

Myspace
Reply With Quote
  #60  
Old 04-05-2007, 11:07 AM
Jeff Gellis's Avatar
Jeff Gellis Jeff Gellis is offline
Junior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-27-2007
Location: Rutherford NJ
Posts: 17
Jeff Gellis is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Sherry View Post
I One of the things that I most like about Gary is that, like Ken Smith, he's a guy with a healthy dose of ambition about his business. That is a compliment in my eyes and is meant for both of them.
I echo this sentiment and applaud anybody with enough drive to get out bed in the morning and try and make a go of the business world and find time to make music as well.
Anything worth doing is worth doing well. Competition is a good thing and we all benefit from it. We benefit by the exchange of info, the constant pushing the envelope to improve available products and, I know you will agree when I say, we are also entertained by the spectical of it all as evidenced by this thread and this forum.

Greg- how was the gig?
__________________
Play the Right Sheet and Make it Groove
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 11:53 AM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2007 - Ken Smith Basses, LTD. (All Rights Reserved)