'The Comfort Factor'

[Ken Smith]

I am starting this thread to discuss the comfort or discomfort of playing the Bass.

What factors to YOU are important in making playing more pleasurable and less strain when playing this 'bigger' Guitar?

I will be tuning back in with my ideas and concepts concerning comfort and what went thru my head in designing the various Smith models as far as the feel I was shooting for.

[Christopher Rhodes]

The owner of a local bass only store stated to me recently - "a lot of musicians do not take into consideration the shape of the instrument when making a purchase - the only consider the sound, tone and feel of the neck.".

His statement made me think of my Smith Basses. Smith Basses play extremely well while sitting down - better (in the sitting position) than any other because of the wide body and cut-outs for access to upper 20+ frets is easier - because of the body shape - in my opinion. Smiths feel bulky while standing up - but that can be a good thing - to hide my expanding waistline! But seriously...

Shape, size and weight are important factors. I tend to prefer lighter weight instruments on long gigs, however light weight instruments tend to be neck heavy - and thus neck dive to some degree. When that happens - I am spending to my time/effort balancing the bass - vice playing it.

I am not sure what the objective of this topic is ... but this is my two cents.

Oh yes - here is a video of me playing an MD-7 Ken Smith. It is heavy, but the tone! Check out the video.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=LtLy4wtJy4k

All the best....
C. Rhodes

[Amit Shtriker]

Very sweet video Chris .. one major reason I was amazed when I first played a Smith was the deep rich woody "boink" that it makes when slapping (this doesn't happen in any other bass i've played so far).

The first time, when I checked out my friend's BMT Elite around 8 years ago, I was amazed by the tone but thought that I could never play an instrument that big, because I am a small player, and it can look very funny.

But then I saw there's a new design - the BSR! I was really happy because it looked much better for me and won't be so big compared to me.. When I checked out the BSR-JMW (which I eventually bought), it still was on the heavy side (I thought to myself it's because of the maple body), but it felt way more luxurious and professional than my older $500 bass.

I can say that after 4 years of descent use (mostly standing up with the bass), I don't have any major problem with comfort, I got used to the weight of the bass, and I think that the strap with the pad is really comfortable. I know I will always stay with the smaller BSR shape, though..

[Bob Faulkner]

Well, I'll preface this by saying my BSR4EG fretless is the most comfortable and best playing bass I've ever touched.

Having said that, the only thing I could think of that would improve the comfort a little would be to shape the top edge of the body where the forearm rests so the body is thinner there. The downside to that is it could impact the tone of the bass, and definitely would impact the look since it's a multi-layer body.

It's rounded already, so it doesn't really hurt, but I've found that on some of the longer sessions I've played, my fingers can start to go numb from the pressure on that one spot of my forearm.

Given the impact this change would have on the look of the bass, and the potential tonal impact, I wouldn't really change this as it's not that big of a deal. But, when asking for constructive criticism on perfection you should expect things like this

[Darren Lipper]

Several factors go into an enjoyable, easy to play bass for me. I guess the ultimate goal is to have an instrument that I do not have to think about, will not fight against me, and will inspire me. And of course this is all in the context of playing live, anywhere from 45 min to 4 hours or so...

The first factor is the neck... It must have a nice smooth feel to it, and the strings must be set up nice and consistant... I like each string to kind of meld into the next in terms of feel and sound. Also, a relatively flat neck profile with low action feels great of course.

The second crucial factor is how the bass feels standing up. How does the bass feel at the 1st fret? How does it feel at the 24th fret? In terms of Smith basses, I am BSR all the way... the 1st position standing on the BSR body shape is much easier on my wrist.

Also important is the weight... again, for my playing style, if a bass is so heavy I can feel it when I play, then it is NOT for me.

Finally, the dynamics of the instrument.... I must be able to play a bass that responds to nuances in playing. Of course there are many other factors to this one, such as the room one is playing in, or the other musicians, the sound system, the size of the room, etc....

So in summary, if the sound in the room is good an balanced, the action is nice and low and even across the neck, and I don't feel any pain in my shoulder or left wrist, I am in bass heaven lol...

[Gareth Hughes]

Aside from string spacing the most important thing for me is being able to comfortable play in first position without bending my wrist too much. I reckon about 70% of my gigging time is spent there so of it gets sore quick I know all about it.

This comfort factor is a variable quantity tho given that what works for me might not for another. I'm a small guy - 5'9", with shortish arms and small hands so what I've found that works best is having the strap button coming over the 12th fret, halfway into the 11th fret. I have the strap hang down vertically, not pulled to my right. Doing this I do lose a little access to the upper frets but that's the trade off, but I reduce the angle in my left wrist.

My basses are J-shaped. When I'm standing I like them to hand just an inch or two to the left of where they would be when I sit.

This set up might not work for giants like Melvin Lee Davis tho as the high frets would be an awkward twist in the other direction.

[Dennis Michaels]

The first time I picked up and played a Ken SMith was in April '06 in Indy at Sam Ash. I played Fender for years. I owned 6 5 strings (Fender/MM and Warwick) and they all felt strange and we won't discuss tone. I picked up the Tiger Maple 5M and fell in love. The balance was perfect, the feel was perfect so after a week of brow beating of the sales I made my deal. I guess for me I can't find a flaw. I would love to try a classic shaped Smith tho'. One day I will but for me the current design I haven't found room for improvement. Also, I picked this bass up from Sam Ash at 5 O'clock on a Friday and had it in the pit of "Joseph and the Amazing Technicolor Dreamcoat" that night at 8. This is the first time a bass has felt like a friend in 2 hours.

[Tim Bishop]

Originally Posted by Dennis Michaels

I would love to try a classic shaped Smith tho'. One day I will but for me the current design I haven't found room for improvement.

Dennis, the BSR Body design is my fave too.

I have a few older "BT" body shapes. They do not balance as well as the BSR on a strap. They are neck heavier (metaphorically speaking) due to shorter upper horn). Is this a problem for me? Hell no! Their great for sitting, but if you are standing, simply rest your forearm on the upper body-wing to help balance it out. In fact, one of my favorite Smith's is my '92 BT5 (Zebra).

I always say: If it feels, plays, and sounds great, but it's heavy or doesn't balance well......ask me if I care!

P.S. By the way.....I have a 212XLT (8) on the way!

[Dennis Michaels]

Originally Posted by Tim Bishop

Dennis, the BSR Body design is my fave too.

I have a few older "BT" body shapes. They do not balance as well as the BSR on a strap. They are neck heavier (metaphorically speaking) due to shorter upper horn). Is this a problem for me? Hell no! Their great for sitting, but if you are standing, simply rest your forearm on the upper body-wing to help balance it out. In fact, one of my favorite Smith's is my '92 BT5 (Zebra).

I always say: If it feels, plays, and sounds great, but it's heavy or doesn't balance well......ask me if I care!

P.S. By the way.....I have a 212XLT (8) on the way!

Very cool... you should here 2 of them....lol

[Albert Smith]

Originally Posted by Tim Bishop

Dennis, the BSR Body design is my fave too.

I have a few older "BT" body shapes. They do not balance as well as the BSR on a strap. They are neck heavier (metaphorically speaking) due to shorter upper horn). Is this a problem for me? Hell no! Their great for sitting, but if you are standing, simply rest your forearm on the upper body-wing to help balance it out. In fact, one of my favorite Smith's is my '92 BT5 (Zebra).

I always say: If it feels, plays, and sounds great, but it's heavy or doesn't balance well......ask me if I care!

P.S. By the way.....I have a 212XLT (8) on the way!

The two of you are really making it hard for me, after reading that Tim's about to pick up a new Eden cab, I'm really tempted to trade my Ampeg rig up to a Eden rig.

[Tim Bishop]

Originally Posted by Albert Smith

The two of you are really making it hard for me, after reading that Tim's about to pick up a new Eden cab, I'm really tempted to trade my Ampeg rig up to a Eden rig.

Al, just do it! You will be thanking both Dennis and me. I promise.

Just make sure and get the right set-up. I'm sure Dennis or myself will be available to point you to that right set-up if needed. You won't look back.

[Roberto Zecchinelli]

Hallo Everyone, Hallo Ken!
About comfort factor I did a small modification to my bass you may consider to introduce to Smith Basses, I think it's a very good thing:
When I first strapped on my bass I felt something was different as playing sit.
I realized that the strap lock is upside the center of the bass. that makes the position of the bass less comfortable because the bass can't be parallel to the body but watches a bit up. this is bad for left wrist.
so My luthier and I moved the straplock lower, exactly simmetrically respect to the old straplock. now the bass feels much better , I can play easier because of a better left hand position and doesn't hurts my ribs anymore.
I'll fill the old hole with another straplock piece.
I think this would be a very usefull upgrade on Smith Basses with almost no effort.
Hope this helps, I can post some picture if someone is interested.
Thank you, Roberto

[Tim Bishop]

Originally Posted by Roberto Zecchinelli

Hallo Everyone, Hallo Ken!
About comfort factor I did a small modification to my bass you may consider to introduce to Smith Basses, I think it's a very good thing:
When I first strapped on my bass I felt something was different as playing sit.
I realized that the strap lock is upside the center of the bass. that makes the position of the bass less comfortable because the bass can't be parallel to the body but watches a bit up. this is bad for left wrist.
so My luthier and I moved the straplock lower, exactly simmetrically respect to the old straplock. now the bass feels much better , I can play easier because of a better left hand position and doesn't hurts my ribs anymore.
I'll fill the old hole with another straplock piece.
I think this would be a very usefull upgrade on Smith Basses with almost no effort.
Hope this helps, I can post some picture if someone is interested.
Thank you, Roberto

Roberto, I'm sorry, I guess I'm totally confused. Could you not adjust the strap accordingly?

[Roberto Zecchinelli]

It's a matter of angle, not a matter of Hight.
I'm not that idiot!
I maybe didn't explain well.
what I need for a correct left wrist position is fingerbord surface parallel to my body,
like when you play sit. if the fingerbord is facing up when you strap it on it will be harder to play and can take to wrist healt problems
because you'll have to bend your left wrist much more to reach the lower strings
It really makes a lot of difference to me, that's why I'd like to know Ken's opinion about that
I hope I sayd that clear now. (i'm sorry for my bad english)

[Bob Faulkner]

I'm thinking a picture would be a good idea. I'm not really able to generate a mental picture of what you're describing. The strap on my bass has nothing at all to do with the bass's position when I'm sitting.

[Tim Bishop]

Originally Posted by Roberto Zecchinelli

It's a matter of angle, not a matter of Hight.
I'm not that idiot!
I maybe didn't explain well.
what I need for a correct left wrist position is fingerbord surface parallel to my body,
like when you play sit. if the fingerbord is facing up when you strap it on it will be harder to play and can take to wrist healt problems
because you'll have to bend your left wrist much more to reach the lower strings
It really makes a lot of difference to me, that's why I'd like to know Ken's opinion about that
I hope I sayd that clear now. (i'm sorry for my bad english)

Roberto,

After further pondering, I think I now understand what you are saying and strap "height" is not what I was suggesting. If you have enough slack in the strap while sitting, you should be able to angle the bass to meet your need and get the angle you are needing (while sitting) for your wrist comfort-level. Otherwise, why wear a strap while sitting?

[Gareth Hughes]

Maybe I'm picking this up wrong but I think that Roberto is describing the angle that the neck is positioned as a result of having a large stomach (politest way I can think of saying that), ie - your belly is tilting the bass body upwards.

In other words - when seated you should only be able to see the sidedots on the neck, but standing the dots on the front of the neck are now visible. And because the neck has moved forward and up like this, the wrist has to have a sharper bend and further stretch to reach the lowest strings.

Geez, this is hard to describe, and English is the only language I speak!!

[Roberto Zecchinelli]

Originally Posted by Gareth Hughes

Maybe I'm picking this up wrong but I think that Roberto is describing the angle that the neck is positioned as a result of having a large stomach (politest way I can think of saying that), ie - your belly is tilting the bass body upwards.

In other words - when seated you should only be able to see the sidedots on the neck, but standing the dots on the front of the neck are now visible. And because the neck has moved forward and up like this, the wrist has to have a sharper bend and further stretch to reach the lowest strings.

Geez, this is hard to describe, and English is the only language I speak!!

Thank you Gareth, that's the idea, (except for the large stomach, I'm slim, instead.
A little example test. Stomach or not if you wear your bass and stand up the bottom edge of your bass will not touch your body..
this won't happen with basses with the straplock in the center of the body like the Yamaha trb6 or I played for long time or almost every bass on the market.
(this is probably why I noticed that)
ok I did some picture to explain my point:

Look at the angle between the bass and the line of the wall behind:

or the door here (notice Clifford Brown and the Double Bass bridge in the background..)

I don't have a goniometer here but this is almost 15 degrees

now see the reduced angle after the modification

Now my bass feels really good on my body..

Then this is a pic of my wrist when playing on the E string with the normal Smith strap position

you can also see very well that the bass is not straight vertical here, as you can notice when you wear your own Smith

Then here the more healty reduced wrist angle with the new strap position.


I don't want to look assumptive with that but I've been very careful to posture problems this years after a bad wrist problem and I think this can really help someone.
than my beautiful smith feels so much better and easyer to play now..
Please don't think this is a criticism. I think the Smith is by far the best bass ever built and I just love it.
It was hard to decide to drill a new hole in my beloved bass, but the result looks very good and I'll fill the original hole with another identical Dunlop straplock..

[Tim Bishop]

Originally Posted by Roberto Zecchinelli

Thank you Gareth, that's the idea, (except for the large stomach, I'm slim, instead.
A little example test. Stomach or not if you wear your bass and stand up the bottom edge of your bass will not touch your body..
this won't happen with basses with the straplock in the center of the body like the Yamaha trb6 or I played for long time or almost every bass on the market.
(this is probably why I noticed that)
ok I did some picture to explain my point:

Look at the angle between the bass and the line of the wall behind:
Attachment 314
or the door here (notice Clifford Brown and the Double Bass bridge in the background..)
Attachment 313
I don't have a goniometer here but this is almost 15 degrees

now see the reduced angle after the modification
Attachment 315
Now my bass feels really good on my body..

Then this is a pic of my wrist when playing on the E string with the normal Smith strap position
Attachment 316
you can also see very well that the bass is not straight vertical here, as you can notice when you wear your own Smith

Then here the more healty reduced wrist angle with the new strap position.
Attachment 317

I don't want to look assumptive with that but I've been very careful to posture problems this years after a bad wrist problem and I think this can really help someone.
than my beautiful smith feels so much better and easyer to play now..
Please don't think this is a criticism. I think the Smith is by far the best bass ever built and I just love it.
It was hard to decide to drill a new hole in my beloved bass, but the result looks very good and I'll fill the original hole with another identical Dunlop straplock..

Roberto, I think this is a great idea. I can totally see the benefit this would bring to those with the type of "wrist problem" you are talking about. Actually, I can see the benefit for anyone willing to give it a shot. I don't necessarily think Ken should change the current location of the strap-loc, however, an option made available to those that want it would be very nice! I would have no problem ordering a Smith with the strap-loc re-located to the lower position.

Great idea!

[Roberto Zecchinelli]

Thank you Tim,
I'm glad you appreciate my little mod..
I was waiting for comments like
"!!did you fu&%$ as$&@§% drill a HOLE in a Ken Smith!!?"
I think It would be nice if Ken would put both locks on their basses
so one can choose wich better fits his playing style.
Roberto
(P.S. Tim, I love your collection!!!)