The art of bowing.

[Richard Prowse]

I'd love to hear (read) your thoughts about bowing and articulation.

[Jeff Moote]

That's a bit open ended, no? What are we supposed to write about?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Richard Prowse

I'd love to hear (read) your thoughts about bowing and articulation.

There are a few schools of drawing the Bow that I am personally aware of. One is the heavy strong attack on each note. Another is a smooth execution where you do not hear the attack. A third is where it draws softly at the start and quickly swells to the desired tone.

I have used all three mentioned as needed. The first and last style should be used as needed for the music. The middle one where you have control of the note from the start should be the normal way to bow. This I find the hardest to maintain as it requires great practice as well as a Bass (with good bowing strings) that responds well to your Bow. Also, the quality of your Bow will greatly aide in this approach.

[Richard Prowse]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

There are a few schools of drawing the Bow that I am personally aware of. One is the heavy strong attack on each note. Another is a smooth execution where you do not hear the attack. A third is where it draws softly at the start and quickly swells to the desired tone.

I have used all three mentioned as needed. The first and last style should be used as needed for the music. The middle one where you have control of the note from the start should be the normal way to bow. This I find the hardest to maintain as it requires great practice as well as a Bass (with good bowing strings) that responds well to your Bow. Also, the quality of your Bow will greatly aide in this approach.

Gary Karr says to bow slowly and near the bridge. He talks about the 'sizzle' you get down there. It certainly gives a great sound.
Here's an interesting one about articulation, if you have a bit of time:
Take the 'B section tune' of Take Five and transpose it (Take 5) to the key of G minor. Play it in thumb position, starting on '12th fret' G - thumb... it sits comfortably here and it is easy to play the notes.
How are you going to bow it?

[Richard Prowse]

I start on a down bow and play all notes on separate bows until I get to the two Fs in bar 4 (just before the tune starts to repeat). I play both of these Fs with a down bow and then carry on with separate bows... this is not ideal, but seems to work. I've tried lots of different bowing patterns.
ps. the two Fs are the 29th & 30th notes in the B section tune (sing it in your head and you'll find them).

[Johnny Layton]

The more experience I get with bowing, the less I think about it and just let things flow naturally...how I would want to sing it. But I do remember my first days very well struggling with the most basic bowing patterns and looking with awe at all the high school and college kids who could spiccato so well.

I play German bow and don't do so well with French (though I do have a couple of French bows to play with). One of the first things I worked on was getting my wrist to loosen up while my thumb rested on the stick. At first, I had to hold the bow "Streicher" style but after a while I could do it.

I still feel I have a lot to learn but I'm glad I've made it as far as I have too.

[David Powell]

I've tried a few times to bow the head of "Take Five". That one is still a bit beyond me in Eb. I might try it transposed.

I am doing the whole head of "Footprints" bowed and I worked really hard getting a good sequence for the strokes. I am cheating a bit on the positions, compared to how Stanley Clarke plays it. I play the whole thing above the heel and use the open G string for the pick-up note or drop that note an octave to the BB string up at the heel. For the melody I use mostly the same position and the open D and G. I'm hanging at the 5-Spot now without my bass so I couldn't tell you what the strokes are, but they work.

I don't play too close to the bridge unless I am above the octave in the upper range of thumb position. In first position, I bow closer to the FB. It really just depends on the position for me. The lower the position, the closer to the FB usually.

I use the black hair also, which seems to be far more sensitive to where you bow the string. It's more challenging, but when you get it right, it is so different from the white hair. To my ear it is better, but the articulation has to be perfect or it will scratch or squeak.

One question I have is about pulling with the fingers and hand (German bow) as well as wrist before engaging the whole arm? It's totally a German bow thing, but I wonder who else uses this attack? This seems to give me more control on the attack, but I have to really "think it" into motion. It's more work than just sawing away at it.

[Jeff Moote]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

There are a few schools of drawing the Bow that I am personally aware of. One is the heavy strong attack on each note. Another is a smooth execution where you do not hear the attack. A third is where it draws softly at the start and quickly swells to the desired tone.

I have used all three mentioned as needed. The first and last style should be used as needed for the music. The middle one where you have control of the note from the start should be the normal way to bow. This I find the hardest to maintain as it requires great practice as well as a Bass (with good bowing strings) that responds well to your Bow. Also, the quality of your Bow will greatly aide in this approach.

I'm with Ken. A clean and even stroke from frog to tip in both directions should be the default. Any articulation and dynamic should be only when called for in the music. I thought this is how everyone was taught? Maybe I just have good teachers?

Originally Posted by David Powell

I use the black hair also, which seems to be far more sensitive to where you bow the string. It's more challenging, but when you get it right, it is so different from the white hair. To my ear it is better, but the articulation has to be perfect or it will scratch or squeak.

I don't think this is really a black hair thing as much as the strings and your technique. I have to work really hard to get my bass to squeak now, but in my earlier days with different strings and less developed technique that's all I got! Good arco strings with a good stroke should speak well no matter the hair colour or how much rosin (within reason) or where you bow along the string (again, within reason). I use black hair, btw, but I don't feel it makes as big a difference as many say. It's more coarse and "gritty" for sure, but that's about it.

[Richard Prowse]

I use black hair too and really like how it responds.
The thing about the B section of 'Take 5' is that I'm trying to get the feel right. I started playing it in Gm simply because I have played with guitarists who seem to prefer playing it in that key... I must admit that I've never tried it in the original key because it sits so well on the bass in Gm.
I'm interested to try David's 'finger pull thing' and will have a go tonight. I must admit that I've been a bit slack on bowing exercises... probably not a good thing to overlook as I bow more than I pizz.
However, I'm still interested in any thoughts about bowing that Take 5 middle section.

[Richard Prowse]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

There are a few schools of drawing the Bow that I am personally aware of. One is the heavy strong attack on each note. Another is a smooth execution where you do not hear the attack. A third is where it draws softly at the start and quickly swells to the desired tone.

I have used all three mentioned as needed. The first and last style should be used as needed for the music. The middle one where you have control of the note from the start should be the normal way to bow. This I find the hardest to maintain as it requires great practice as well as a Bass (with good bowing strings) that responds well to your Bow. Also, the quality of your Bow will greatly aide in this approach.

I've just been experimenting with the 'finger thing' as suggested by David. I feel that Ken is probably right in that you basically push the bow backwards and forwards (my simplified interpretation). But David's concept certainly made me think as I practised... which has to be good. I've bowed for a long time (longer than I've understood verbs or how women think) and probably do a lot of things naturally, as Jeff moots (is that a pun?). I think that my bowing pattern for the B section of Take 5 is okay. I'd still like to hear what others think though.

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Richard Prowse

I've just been experimenting with the 'finger thing' as suggested by David. I feel that Ken is probably right in that you basically push the bow backwards and forwards (my simplified interpretation). But David's concept certainly made me think as I practised... which has to be good. I've bowed for a long time (longer than I've understood verbs or how women think) and probably do a lot of things naturally, as Jeff moots (is that a pun?). I think that my bowing pattern for the B section of Take 5 is okay. I'd still like to hear what others think though.

The finger pull thing is something my teacher introduced to me for spicatto and it uses both the 1st and 2nd fingers and the thumb to push and pull the stick with almost no wrist movement. Once I had the back and forth movement down using only the hand, my teacher then encouraged me to combine some wrist movement with this, and finally the arm. This gives a very sudden direction reversal at the end of the stroke. If you can imagine it is like popping the clutch, hitting the gas and cresting a hill in rapid succession. I really have to concentrate to get it happening on all the strokes but I do think it gives a much quicker start to full response on the string. I'm not sure there is an equivalent for French bow. I've never been formally taught French bow;- both of my teachers recommended learning German first and I'm still far from proficient with the German technique but definitely have made major improvement in the last 2 years since I got a carved bass with a good set-up.

I'm with you on the "default" stroke Jeff, but in most of the exercises I have (George Vance, etc.) the notes just do not last that long and these call for down-up-down-up (ad infinitum) most of the time so most of my bowing is right around the balance point probably using only the center 10 or so inches of bow hair. Some times if the notes are short enough, my arm doesn't move, just my fingers/hand and wrist. If I draw out a long note, I use more of the bow of course, and the whole arm draws after the first inch of so of hair. I find I do these kinds of things more when improvising bowed solos. When I'm improvising I'm kind of in "anything goes mode" and I just don't think about it much. When I'm reading a chart, my effort is toward a more technical approach to the strokes and releases.

My spare bow still has the white hair and it seems to give about the same sound no matter where I bow the string and is far more forgiving as far as squeaks and scratches. The more focused sound I get with the black hair is worth the extra care in technique. But I'm sure there are several variables in all of this, possibly the primary one being French vs. German hold, etc.

[Jeff Moote]

I don't know about German bow as I'm a French player, but I'm sure what I'm about to say applies to both:

• Even on the shortest notes, there must be some arm movement. The wrist/hand alone cannot generate a good sound without the weight of the arm.
• How short are these notes you're talking about that you're only using 1/3 of the bow? For an allegro tempo 8ths should get at least half a bow, and at a slow tempo a whole bow. Quarters almost always a whole bow.

This is again only for the "default" stroke. There's obviously a lot of other options when you get into articulations, spiccato plus you might want a certain effect like bowing slower near the bridge, etc. The above advice would be for developing a solid orchestral stroke to which adjustments can be made for the other techniques.

[Nick Hart]

I am a German player and play using this "New York" style of playing although I would call it more of a Russian school as all of my German bow teachers have been from Russia. The principle is that the sound comes from large muscle groups, and that your wrist plays no part in the sound. Your entire arm has to work as a unit in order for a core sound to be pulled at all times. Yes, your fingers and wrist play a part in the sound, and the fingers a more important part than the wrist, but the idea is that your fingers and wrist serve as shock absorbers and follow through, and are not conscious movements.

The movement should start from the floor and come through your body, and this creates a very slight sway from side to side in the direction your bow is moving. Then the actual bow movement starts from the muscles in your back and the entire arm moves, and the fingers remain active and pull the string as the bow moves. As this is happening the arm moves in sort of a pendulum motion in order to distribute weight. So as I go through a down bow, my arm lifts a little so that the weight transfers to the tip of the bow and as I pull an up bow, my arm moves lower so the weight transfers from the tip to the frog.

My bow hold is this New York/Russian style hold. I place the pad of my thumb on top of the stick of the bow, with the pointer and middle fingers sitting on the side and playing an active part in the pull of the bow. My ring and pinky fingers sit underneath the ferrole of the bow and balance the bow or act as a more active pull in off the string strokes. The bow sits at a slight angle on my hand, so that I can have flat hair on the strings and keep my wrist straight at all times.

The idea is to feel every bow change and to hear an even sound, but there must be a start to the note in order to correctly hear the pitch. Also, if there is no start to the note, and there is no core sound, there will be very little pitch definition, and this is usually much more obvious in off the string and shorter strokes.

As far as injury goes, most musicians have injuries from repetitive movements in the small muscle groups. We train our small muscle groups to do very specific things and this leads to injury. By moving our primary focus away from small muscle groups and towards large muscle groups, we can let the small muscle groups act more naturally and draw a rich and big bassy sound with less effort and injury.

[Richard Prowse]

Nick,
I read your post with great interest. Thanks for your thoughts.
Richard

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Jeff Moote

I don't know about German bow as I'm a French player, but I'm sure what I'm about to say applies to both:

• Even on the shortest notes, there must be some arm movement. The wrist/hand alone cannot generate a good sound without the weight of the arm.
• How short are these notes you're talking about that you're only using 1/3 of the bow? For an allegro tempo 8ths should get at least half a bow, and at a slow tempo a whole bow. Quarters almost always a whole bow.

This is again only for the "default" stroke. There's obviously a lot of other options when you get into articulations, spiccato plus you might want a certain effect like bowing slower near the bridge, etc. The above advice would be for developing a solid orchestral stroke to which adjustments can be made for the other techniques.

If you don't play German bow, how would you know? I think Nick explained it pretty well, but for spiccato or sautille, there is very little arm involved compared to hand and wrist, the way I was taught;- by two different teachers. They were not Russians, but I think it is not inconsistent with Nick's explanation. If the bow is 140+ grams, that is sufficient weight without the arm, and it is not like the weight of the arm is somehow suspended just because it is not going back and forth. The weight of the arm is always there. Just for fun, Jeff, you should try out a German bow. It also makes a difference if you are sitting or standing. I would think no two people end up approaching this exactly the same way. My first teachers bow was light and short. My second teacher thought my 140+ gram bow was a little light. However both taught the same push / pull with the fingers. I can't see how the fingers could do that motion on a French bow hold, so yes, with French maybe it is always the arm and arm only, but not so with the German. I can get 2 inches of very rapid motion with just fingers and wrist. Not that I do that on long notes, just the quick staccato ones. I'll try to take some photos of what I do. Perhaps that will help.

[Jeff Moote]

Originally Posted by David Powell

If you don't play German bow, how would you know?

Well, I wouldn't! That's not really the point though as I think no matter the grip you have to use your arm. Sure, maybe not as much for shorter off the string strokes, but all the power comes from the shoulder (and beyond). Nick's post confirms this for me, that German players do it too. It also sounds like you can use your fingers to aid in attack.

Just for fun, Jeff, you should try out a German bow. It also makes a difference if you are sitting or standing.

No thanks - I don't see any reason to waste time practicing something I'll never use. I think it's best that everyone just picks a grip and continues to develop that all along. Once you've mastered one, it's fair to consider spending some time on the other but as far as I'm concerned I'd like to focus on getting one right

I can get 2 inches of very rapid motion with just fingers and wrist. Not that I do that on long notes, just the quick staccato ones. I'll try to take some photos of what I do. Perhaps that will help.

I don't think I need photos - understand and this sounds quite fine, but even when executing spicatto you can't use only your fingers. They can aid the movement, but all the sound comes from the shoulder.

[Johnny Layton]

Originally Posted by Jeff Moote

I think it's best that everyone just picks a grip and continues to develop that all along.

I tend to agree, ultimately. I can be a tough call, though, especially when you're a curious sort and the opportunity to explore comes one's way.

I was encouraged to try French bow after only a year of lessons and study by my teacher, who was and still is quite far advanced from me in experience and skill. I did and it was fun, but it didn't take me long to return to the German bow and "get back to work".

Plus consider, say, Paul Ellison switching grips at leisure no matter the bow. I always thought that was darn cool.

Sorry not trying to argue anything, really...just enjoying the bowing thinking stuff all over again

[Richard Prowse]

I played French for many years and switched to German about 3 years ago because of an RSI type hand injury. I love German but, if I had to play French for a while that would be fine too. Each bow definitely has its own advantages but I think that the same basic mechanics of bowing apply to both. I honestly believe that a good arco player would get pleasing results from both bows... good bowing is as much in the head.
Articulation, now there's another problem. Anyone had a go at the Take 5 B section?

[David Powell]

Take Five;- I'll give it a shot later today, Richard. We will be performing tonight and will probably do "Take Five" but I have to play it in key to match the sax. I remember my biggest problem last time I tried it was figuring out where to place the arpeggios in those chords. It seems I was leaning heavily toward thumb position for the whole series of chords but it is possible to do it several different fingerings, all of which result in several different appoaches to the strokes. That is the toughest jazz melody to put on the finger board that I have tried yet. I'm sure once I get the "trick" of the placement down, it will be pretty straight forward.

[Richard Prowse]

Originally Posted by David Powell

Take Five;- I'll give it a shot later today, Richard. We will be performing tonight and will probably do "Take Five" but I have to play it in key to match the sax. I remember my biggest problem last time I tried it was figuring out where to place the arpeggios in those chords. It seems I was leaning heavily toward thumb position for the whole series of chords but it is possible to do it several different fingerings, all of which result in several different appoaches to the strokes. That is the toughest jazz melody to put on the finger board that I have tried yet. I'm sure once I get the "trick" of the placement down, it will be pretty straight forward.

The tune's pretty easy (note wise) in Gm. I play the A section down the bass and do the B section in thumb position. It's the arco articulation of that B section that I spend a lot of time thinking about. I worry about not getting a good feel. I'll be very interested to get your opinion.
Thanks David