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Old 03-10-2010, 05:49 PM
Oystein Djupvik Oystein Djupvik is offline
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Question Blockless..

Hi, are you familiar with Bohuslav Lantner basses? I have a 1883 flatback bass labeled Bohuslav Lantner Prague. It is a converted 3 stringer and the neck has a wedge in it. I like it very much. Smallish 3/4 gamba size with a distinct sound which projects good. Here is a picture, not very good though.
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Last edited by Ken Smith; 08-13-2012 at 02:56 PM. Reason: moved here from the "Doubled up.." thread because it belongs here under the Blockless topic.
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  #2  
Old 06-12-2012, 10:46 PM
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Question Blockless..

Blockless German/Tirol/Tyrol/Bohemian Basses from the early 1800s thru the early 1900s, WHO knows for sure where these were made and by whom if anyone can name a single maker or Shop? There seems to be nothing written anywhere that points to anything concrete about these basses other than basic assumptions and folklore. Is this some kind of German, Austrian, Bohemian or Bavarian secret?

All of them have the Ribs raised in a hump going into the Neck and some have a Purfling design like this in the Back;

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Old 06-13-2012, 07:48 AM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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Talking

Sorry maestro but I don't have the info you are seeking. What I wanted to elucidate, though, is the situation at the back button on the bass you pictured. Many blockless basses one encounters have a similar break there. That's because when the bass was made the neck had an extended "foot" that was glued to the back in place of having an internal neck block. Unfortunately it's a pretty weak system, and a bump to the neck often results in serious damage to the upper back. That is especially true if the bass falls sideways onto the scroll. Then you will often see the evidence not only in the form of a back break, but ribs, which unsupported by a block, tear apart at the neck joint. Interestingly, here at the Oberlin workshop this week, two guys are rebuilding blockless basses. The block installation is a complicated one, involving a plaster mold of the area, extensive block carving/fitting, and a complex glue-up. (Ken, I know you know this stuff, and you know that I know that you know, but I thought it might interest other bass nerd viewers.)
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Old 06-13-2012, 08:23 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
Sorry maestro but I don't have the info you are seeking. What I wanted to elucidate, though, is the situation at the back button on the bass you pictured. Many blockless basses one encounters have a similar break there. That's because when the bass was made the neck had an extended "foot" that was glued to the back in place of having an internal neck block. Unfortunately it's a pretty weak system, and a bump to the neck often results in serious damage to the upper back. That is especially true if the bass falls sideways onto the scroll. Then you will often see the evidence not only in the form of a back break, but ribs, which unsupported by a block, tear apart at the neck joint. Interestingly, here at the Oberlin workshop this week, two guys are rebuilding blockless basses. The block installation is a complicated one, involving a plaster mold of the area, extensive block carving/fitting, and a complex glue-up. (Ken, I know you know this stuff, and you know that I know that you know, but I thought it might interest other bass nerd viewers.)
Yes, I have seen many Blockless Basses in various grades and styles as well as many that were blocked that I know or suspect were made Blockless originally.

On my bass above, it is getting an inlaid Neck button graft as well as a button trim. My bass from what I see has suffered all of the various forms of damage that you just described. Mike Magee has this one on his bench now. The ribs were all lined with thick canvas/linen and one rib was like a puzzle of pieces damaged and glued. This rib needed more repair so the linen was removed only to find 1-2mm or glue between the wood and the linen. In scraping the loosened glue off (and he sent me a video of it being done), the loose pieces of wood flaked away in the process. After that rib was re-assembled and repaired there was another with questionable linings. So, he started on that one only to determine that the pieced together repairs on the old linings needed to be replaced. At that point we collectively decieded to restore all of the Ribs. Going into this restoration, I was hoping to leave the ribs alone as the bass was holding and sounded good. They were a can-o-worms.

So, in conclusion, regardless of the higher grade than normal wood used to make this bass, the construction combined with a long life of constant use, bumps and bangs has proven that the 'blockless wonder' name was a 'wonder' only when it was made.

In my research over the years I have learned that the Violin family instruments were not originally made with all of the blocks and linings we see today. It was an evolution with some makers and schools moving to fully blocked sooner than others. Somewhere in it's progress the blocks and linings became standard. These blockless style basses seemed to have passed for 'so far so good' into the 20th century. Kind of like the Last of the Mohicans!

Anyone see my Feather lying around? .. I got plenty of Bows but no Arrows either..

Now, if we could just figure out who made them! My thought on this is that possibly, they knew they were making cheap instruments that would fall apart easier than if made with a neck block. Prescott made blockless basses and inserted the ribs into the back and top plates like furniture. He didn't think he was doing anything wrong because even at that early date (not really early for the age of the d.bass), he seemed proud to use his name on everything he produced. I can only assume he copied some German model of a bass from the looks of his gamba style instruments with and without the lower rounded corners (aka busetto). The Cellos and Church basses were made the same way with violin corners as well as a few 4/4 d.basses that were like giant looking cellos. Still, he made them blockless and from some I have seen in original state, without inner linings as well.

So, the question remains, where do these basses actually originate from. An address would be nice!
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Old 06-14-2012, 01:28 AM
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Lightbulb flash back..

A few years ago, I was having a conversation with the late great bassist Charles Fambrough about his bass. It 'was' a blockless bass until it was damaged in flight. I think he was somewhere near Austria when the bass came off the Plane broken. I don't know the extent of the damage but he told me the Airlines was covering the accident under their insurance. He found a Luthier around Austria (I think) and was told something like "I know all about these Basses which were made around here", or something to that nature. It was just a brief mention within many subjects of the conversation. I wasn't in the process of doing research on the subject otherwise I would have not only picked his bran but would have gotten the name of the Luthier as well. His bass was blocked and repaired and it was even better according to Charles after the repair. I have played this bass many times when sitting on of some of his gigs. Sometimes I used his bass and sometimes I had one of mine and we did a 'two bass' thing and had a ball doing it. His was a 7/8ths by today's standards but then I figure this was the Full sized model of just the Orchestra size model. It was smooth, powerful ad he could play the heck out of it! RIP Charles, we all miss you here.

The point being that the Luthier in or around Austria knew these basses, and he never worked at Sears!
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Old 07-20-2012, 10:45 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Oystein Djupvik View Post
Hi, are you familiar with Bohuslav Lantner basses? I have a 1883 flatback bass labeled Bohuslav Lantner Prague. It is a converted 3 stringer and the neck has a wedge in it. I like it very much. Smallish 3/4 gamba size with a distinct sound which projects good. Here is a picture, not very good though.
First off, I am over 2 years late responding to this. Why? I don't know. Although it's not directly on-topic with this thread other than the Prague Label I still want to talk briefly about this bass.

I recently spoke with a Luthier/dealer in Germany and while discussing these basses with the raised shoulders at the neck block which are usually made Blockless, I asked if these were from the Tirol or Mittenwald as we always call these basses Tyrolean. He responded 'Bohemia', Czech. Another Luthier in the USA also said he believes these to be Czech/Bohemian as well and not German/Tirol as previously believed. So, from the Blockless construction often with slanted FFs, I have two people at least that disagree with the Tirol theory.

I have seen some old basses labelled from the Tirol and many from Mittenwald but none of them ever look similar in design or construction as do these Blockless basses that are all over the world now. So, maybe we need to look a bit to the north and west of the Tirol into Bohemia as a place of origin. I did have a bass many years ago with a Label of Sebastian Klotz, Mittenwald 1791 that had a neck block in that raised rib/neck area but I can't say for if it was a Bohemian with a fake label or it was Bavarian with similar construction. It was an old bass that I bought in 1975. Still, of all the confirmed Mittenwald/Tirol basses I have seen, none of them looked like a 'Blockless Wonder'.
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Old 07-21-2012, 09:09 PM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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If you look in the old turn-of-the-20th-century Sears catalogs you will see blockless basses for sale, and clearly marked "Made in Germany". At least this is my pre-dementia remembrance. I also recall they were priced at $25 for the basic model and $50 for the Deluxe. I think the "Tyrol" attribution is an American thing.

Last edited by Ken Smith; 08-13-2012 at 02:57 PM. Reason: moved here from the "Doubled up.." thread because it belongs here under the Blockless topic.
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Old 08-12-2012, 02:20 AM
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Lightbulb 'made in' or 'exported from'?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
If you look in the old turn-of-the-20th-century Sears catalogs you will see blockless basses for sale, and clearly marked "Made in Germany". At least this is my pre-dementia remembrance. I also recall they were priced at $25 for the basic model and $50 for the Deluxe. I think the "Tyrol" attribution is an American thing.
I found this on-line as well as several other pages dating before an after this period about the relations with Germany and Bohemia.

Violin making in western Bohemia and the Vogtland region

In the 19th century, the new constellation of violin making in the economic region of the border between western Bohemian and the Vogtland evolved into a highly efficient division of labour. It went on to shape the wide-scale musical culture of Europe and the U.S. with the large numbers of cost-effective instruments it yielded. Smaller workshops throughout the entire binational area built instruments and, more notably, instrument parts to large-volume merchants who sold them internationally at top profits. In Schönbach, nearly 150,000 violins were produced each year in the late 19th century – along with 200,000 violin backs! These admirable figures clearly illustrate the economic structure of the instrument “publishing” business, as it was called.
There were, however, downsides to the industry's success. One was the massive need which prevailed amongst the families, who were completely financially dependent; the other was the dubious reputation of the lower-quality industrial products which to this day still clings to the era's Bohemian-Saxonian stringed instruments. Schönbach and Graslitz in particular were home to only a few violin makers who were able to create an instrument and all its parts from scratch– and who could afford the time to do so. However, their works – which were often purchased anonymously – had quite good acoustic and aesthetic properties, and these old Bohemian-Saxonian instruments do not deserve the fundamental disdain they frequently are given.
The Schönbach instrument makers experienced a minor form of emancipation from the supremacy of Markneukirchen around the turn of the 20th century when they founded two production cooperatives and established their own brokers. As a result, they were able to export some 20% of their own production by themselves. Within the interlinked business structure of the region, Schönbach stood out as the key centre for trading tonewoods, some 700 train cars of which were sold each year.

Last edited by Ken Smith; 08-13-2012 at 02:57 PM. Reason: moved here from the "Doubled up.." thread because it belongs here under the Blockless topic.
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Old 08-12-2012, 07:30 PM
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Cool more thoughts on origin..

It has been said that the American bass maker Prescott copied some old German bass. Prescott made many basses that were blockless with the raised shoulders and even made the Cello/church basses blockless as well. Many other bass makers of his time in New England did the same thing quite often.

Now, if the supposed age of the Blockless wonders whether German, Tirol or Bohemian is often listed as late 19th to early 20th centuries, Prescott school basses, supposedly based on the German school of making date from the early 19th century, not the late 19th.

I think it is safe to say that when blockless German school instruments were made (not just basses) and when they began to show up in USA are different dates. Just because we see these imports originating later in time does not make the onset of the model or style within those dates when they became available in USA.

Domestically speaking (over there), these were cheaper to make and sell than the Saxon style basses as well as Bohemian that were fully blocked and well carved. I would guess that for price alone, a few importers discovered these cheaper options and brought them in to sell in Sears and Wurlitzer as well according to an old catalogue I have seen.

Many old German school makers built Guitars and Lutes before Violins. Italy was the first to make actual Violin family instruments while Germany and Bohemia were still making Viols, lutes and Guitars. This blockless construction is basically guitar construction. I have seen many instruments in person and in picture that were missing one kind of block or another. Fully blocked instruments are considered the quality way of making and the standard of today.

So, I think it is safe to say that these blockless type basses can be much older then their USA import period. Some that I have seen look 150-200 years old and with good wood as well. Not something you would think was made to save money. Just built in that style for the domestic market. After all, what did Prescott have to copy in his time? An old blockless bass of some sort. Makes sense?

Last edited by Ken Smith; 08-13-2012 at 02:56 PM. Reason: moved here from the "Doubled up.." thread because it belongs here under the Blockless topic.
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Old 08-13-2012, 07:59 AM
Sam Sherry Sam Sherry is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
If you look in the old turn-of-the-20th-century Sears catalogs you will see blockless basses for sale, and clearly marked "Made in Germany". . . . I think the "Tyrol" attribution is an American thing.
You're making sense (as usual).

I've said elsewhere that "Tyrolean" likely began as a businessman's effort to provide a waft of vaguely-Italian atmosphere to a non-Italian instrument.

Last edited by Ken Smith; 08-13-2012 at 02:56 PM. Reason: moved here from the "Doubled up.." thread because it belongs here under the Blockless topic.
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Old 08-13-2012, 11:37 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Sam Sherry View Post
You're making sense (as usual).

I've said elsewhere that "Tyrolean" likely began as a businessman's effort to provide a waft of vaguely-Italian atmosphere to a non-Italian instrument.
Very possible and maybe also done to hide where they came from as well protecting the source. Thank's for posting Sam. I have read that thread. Very interesting.

Last edited by Ken Smith; 08-13-2012 at 02:54 PM. Reason: I merged 6 posts including the Top one as it pertains mainly to the subject of Blockless basses and belongs in this Thread.
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Old 08-13-2012, 03:21 PM
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Cool on the Blockless subject..

I went thru the last few years of Threads on Blockless basses and rather than merging them here, I thought it would be best to just post the links.

As you can see, some opinions given be me and others point to the Tirol but from new information gathered, some of them at least might be Bohemian instead. The Bohemian region encompasses most of the Czech Republic from the German border near Saxony and into Moravia with Prague being the old capitol of Bohemia.

Here are the other 'Blockless' Threads;

http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=265
http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=764
http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=1331
http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=1408
http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=1631
http://www.smithbassforums.com/showthread.php?t=2078
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