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  #1  
Old 08-16-2008, 04:29 PM
Fernando González Fernando González is offline
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Default Some questions about a bass

Hello,
I have a bass labeled.....


I think Jean Cavalli isn´t the maker but the dealer. I suposse thie dealer entrust instruments to a maker probably not so distant.
This is the bass...





Do you think it´s German or French? Probably the neck isn´t original.
It has also a lengh string of 108 cm. (nearly 43"). I´d like to shorten to 42 or less. Here in Spain people doesn´t like so long. Any ideas for making this change? May be a extended nut was enough or even move the bridge. Any advise from the masters, please?

Thank you
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  #2  
Old 08-16-2008, 04:36 PM
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Lightbulb more Pics..

Please show the Back, the sides/ribs and more angles of the scroll. Straight on plain shots please, no artistic angles please.

From the pics you show I can't tell much at all. I can't see the wood!
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Old 08-16-2008, 04:56 PM
Fernando González Fernando González is offline
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Sorry!
The wood is almost plain excluding the back.







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Old 08-16-2008, 05:16 PM
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Cool ok.. and..

Close up of the body/front FFs and all angles of the Scroll, 4 sides please..
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Old 08-16-2008, 05:35 PM
Fernando González Fernando González is offline
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No problem!!!









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  #6  
Old 08-16-2008, 05:40 PM
Fernando González Fernando González is offline
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And now I must go to sleep.....It´s a very serious advise of my wife....
Tomorrow I´ll read your replies.

Regards,
Fernando.
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Old 08-16-2008, 05:53 PM
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Cool Humm?

Well.. Lausanne huh? That's in Switzerland near France and slightly north west of Turin, Italy.

Do you know for sure if the Varnish on the body is original or has the Bass been refinished or over varnished?

If I had to guess I would say the Varnish looks French but the Bass could be Swiss. The Bass looks more German than French to me. Maybe there was a shop in Switzerland making these or, it may have come in the white from Germany.

The wood of the Scroll looks to be Beechwood. That usually spells German but it's no guarantee.

Play safe and call it a Swiss Shop-Bass. Can't go wrong with that.

Cavalli by the way is an Italian name and Jean is of French origin. Mixed parents or a made up trade name? Your guess is as good as mine. I can't find anything with that name listed, sorry.
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Old 08-17-2008, 08:49 AM
Fernando González Fernando González is offline
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The neck has the holes of previous tyrolean machines and the wood is quite different of the rest of the instrumets. As it has a clearly important reparation may be the neck isn´t the original.

How do you know about the varnish source? This is very interesting.
Is there any book, source, etc, about the bass making schools over the time and his caracteristics?

Thank you very much!!!
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  #9  
Old 08-17-2008, 12:06 PM
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Cool How do you know about the varnish source?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando González View Post
The neck has the holes of previous tyrolean machines and the wood is quite different of the rest of the instrumets. As it has a clearly important reparation may be the neck isn´t the original.

How do you know about the varnish source? This is very interesting.
Is there any book, source, etc, about the bass making schools over the time and his caracteristics?

Thank you very much!!!
Well, from looking at many many Basses over the years you get to see the pattern of the schools and periods of making. After awhile, just like driving a car, you know a STOP sign from a YIELD sign.

This is the same with shapes and woods, FFs and Scrolls. It's all memory recording.

On your Bass the Varnish does not look like it was applied all that well so either it's over-varnished or re-varnished. I don't think a Bass from a shop would have brush streaks like that. Also, the period and style of the Bass looks way older than the condition of the varnish as far as normal wear and tear goes.

I see some filled holes from gear plates but Gears can be changed a week after the Bass was made or a hundred years later. My Tyrolean Bass had Plates before with the Hatpeg Gears. About 20 years ago (for the former owner) a Luthier put on some nice 19th century French Gears on it. Those gears might be as old as the Bass or older. If not (it really doesn't matter), the fact remains that the age of the Gears does not say when they were put on the Bass or the age of the Bass either. I can put 100 year old gears on a new Bass tomorrow and the Bass will still be new. Gears are just parts so don't get too hung up on Gears vs. aging. They don't always go together.

Looking at the Back of your Bass, I see it could be Czech as well if not German. Many shops and dealers bought Basses from German and Czech factories and attached their own labels. There must be thousands of Basses here in USA like that. Labels like Juzek, Morelli, G.A. Pfretzschner and any other Label written in English is an Import (or Export from the country of origin).

When the Bass is not a confirmed Pedigree or brand (Shop or handmade), then the ID process is sometimes difficult. Especially when the Bass has some age to it along with a few alterations. That makes it even harder but not always.
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Old 08-17-2008, 01:46 PM
Fernando González Fernando González is offline
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Thanks Ken!!!

What is about shorten the string lengt one or two cm? Probably moving the bridge could be enough.

Here in Spain you can´t see a lot of good basses. I mean REALLY good basses, so I´ll to learn to identify then by photos or books. I´m very interested on it.
Sometime I read in double bassist that a good orquestra brought good basses for the players. In Spain most orquestras have new instruments, Poellmann, Nogaro, Gruenert and so, but never you can see an old italian bass.

Regards,

Fernando.
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  #11  
Old 08-17-2008, 06:45 PM
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Cool old italian bass?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando González View Post
Thanks Ken!!!

What is about shorten the string lengt one or two cm? Probably moving the bridge could be enough.

Here in Spain you can´t see a lot of good basses. I mean REALLY good basses, so I´ll to learn to identify then by photos or books. I´m very interested on it.
Sometime I read in double bassist that a good orquestra brought good basses for the players. In Spain most orquestras have new instruments, Poellmann, Nogaro, Gruenert and so, but never you can see an old italian bass.

Regards,

Fernando.
First off, how about finding an old Spanish Bass? Not all of them are Guitar shaped but even if they are, if it sounds good, play it.

One reason for the lack of Basses is that either people took them out already and bought them years ago or people didn't go get them and buy them like many dealers did here in USA in the last 50 years.

On the shortening problem just looking at your Bass doesn't give me all the measurements I would use to plan that out. If the Top is healthy with no sinkage near the Bridge feet and you have some room like you do from the feet to the upper F-eyes then try just moving the Bridge up along with the soundpost in proportion and see how the mensur is then.

Is the Neck a D or Eb at the heel? How long from the Nut to the Neck touching the Block? How long from the end of the Neck at the Block measuring on the Top to the top of the bridge foot? How far out from the Top is the underside of the Fingerboard (aka Neckstand)? What is the exact string length now?

Basically, give me/us a Map of measurements of your Bass concerning the Length so good advice can be given.

A False Nut can be a good fix or a bad fix. This depends on the note-stop you have at the Heel and where you reach the F# as well. You should be able to reach for the F# with your 4th finger while your thumb is still on the Heel and your hand can touch the shoulder, not reaching over it. If not, it is too far away. A False Nut pushes the notes further towards the Bridge. Moving the Bridge up moves the notes closer to the Nut.

Also, concerning the Neckstand, it would be good to know what your string heights are and how tall your Bridge is in the center off the Top at those heights. Often, a corrected Neck stand can make a huge difference. I witnessed this personally with my Gilkes. It's barely a 41" mensur (depends on the tilt of the Bridge and feet, could go a tad shorter) with a proud D-Neck. The overstand (neckstand) was very low/shallow before it was restored by Arnold/AES. When I would try to play the harmonics over the Bridge on the Dragonetti, I was up on my toes and I'm 6ft tall with fairly long arms. The 8" Ribs (7 1/2" at the Neck) don't help much either but that's the Bass. The Neckstand can be moved and improved for playability.

Here's some pics of the before and after. The Neck before was out only about 13mm from the Top if I recall correctly. Now it's about 35mm or so. Please excuse the poor views as the shots were not taken to show the neckstand (distance from the Top).


For a bass to play its best, everything about it need to be just right! The Gilkes went from one of the hardest Basses to get around to my favorite go-to Bass when I have something difficult so play. We call that a 360, a complete turn-a-round.
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  #12  
Old 08-18-2008, 04:10 AM
Fernando González Fernando González is offline
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Hello!!

The measurements of the bass are as follows:

The neck is a Eb quite low at the heel, almost in the middle betwen D and Eb. From Nut to final neck 46,5 cm.
From Neck to feet 58,8 cm.
Neckstand now 25 mm, apears to be was corrected with a wedge that is almost the half of this....And not a very fine job.



String lenght 108,5 cm.
Bridge lenght ,top to bridge center 166 mm.
Distance of F-Holes 164 mm.
Back lenght 115,3 cm

When I brought it, it was very easy to play. I lower the saddle just to give more tension and fit a thick strings. The bass is still soft to play but I think now the sound has more fat, more orquestral sound. I´m not an expert but I always thought the bass can be a "powerfull cannon" with a correct fit.

Your Gilkes is very nice. The maple of the neck looks great!!
Later I´ll put some photos of my Poellmann bass. It has also nice woods.
I´m vey happy with it!!

Regards ,

Fernando.
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  #13  
Old 08-18-2008, 06:40 AM
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Cool Measurements..

Ok.. With the pics and the numbers I think I know a little more now. Your Bridge is a good height but the neckstand is still shallow. The Wedge is common because it is easier to do than remove the neck, add a button and re-fit the neck. That would be better but more expensive. Also, I believe your Neck is pitched back some. This does two things and the Shim under the fingerboard may have been put to help this along. The pitched back Neck helps to raise up the bridge height and can also slightly lengthen the mensur/string length as well.

To fix and get to under 107cm or 106.5, the easiest is the Bridge moved up to sit above the F-notches, not on the centers. Being that you are between a D and Eb Heel, a false Nut would help correct that to a D and also shorten the mensur as well.

I did this 'exact' same thing on my Loveri. It was over 109cm (43" or so) and I wanted it under 42"/-107. The Heel stop was also between a D and Eb just like your Bass so, I made a false Nut for it and moved the bridge feet up. I ended with about 41.5"/105.4 or so and a D-Neck as well.

Look at the pics here of the way it was after my work;


How does this affect the sound? Well, the longer string length is a looser feel and deeper sound but only slightly. The shorter length is tighter and more focused sounding, slightly only again.

With a good sounding Bass, playability is more important than 10% of sound difference. If you can't play the Bass, what good is it to you?

Remember to move the soundpost as well when you 'cheat' the Bridge forward.

This Loveri by the way was recently sold to a fine professional Orchestral player working in Europe. He sounds way better than I ever did on the Bass. I am glad the Loveri has a new home now. Buying old un-playable or barely-playable Basses and restoring them gives me great joy when the conclusion is a new home with a pro orchestra player and a renewed life for the Bass as well. That's what it's all about!
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  #14  
Old 08-18-2008, 09:05 AM
Fernando González Fernando González is offline
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Thanks Ken.
I have one more question. If you want to enlarge the neckstand to 30 mm (as for example has my Poellman), do you keep the same bridge height? or do you mantain the angle and therefore you raise the brigde height? In this case a little more pressure on the top won´t be a trouble.
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Old 08-18-2008, 09:38 AM
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Cool humm..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando González View Post
Thanks Ken.
I have one more question. If you want to enlarge the neckstand to 30 mm (as for example has my Poellman), do you keep the same bridge height? or do you mantain the angle and therefore you raise the brigde height? In this case a little more pressure on the top won´t be a trouble.
That I believe is a question for Arnold. He re-worked both of my recent Pollmanns and would be better if he answered that. If you move the Neck out and leave the same angle the Bridge will rise. Usually on most German Basses and even on Pollmanns they can benefit from a higher Bridge as many of them the height is barely 6" (152.4mm). Again, current measurements would help to determine what is needed. If the angle is too steep and the bridge height is already good, reducing the angle of the Neck pitch at the block might be necessary.
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Old 08-19-2008, 04:46 PM
Fernando González Fernando González is offline
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Thanks Ken!!!
What is the correct angle of the neck? Does it depends of another measurements of the bass or there is, more or less, a standart?
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Old 08-19-2008, 05:45 PM
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Cool correct angle of the neck?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Fernando González View Post
Thanks Ken!!!
What is the correct angle of the neck? Does it depends of another measurements of the bass or there is, more or less, a standart?
This, I do not know. What I do like is about 35mm or overstand and 6.5 - 7" of Bridge height. The height depends on the Arch of the Bass as well as the feel of each individual instrument.

When a Luthier knows the actual Bass well, he can usually do his best job to make corrections and adjustments.
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  #18  
Old 08-20-2008, 02:42 AM
Fernando González Fernando González is offline
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I understand Ken.
When I began to study music it looked a very long way. I think violin making/repair looks the same!!!
Much to learn.

Thank you.

Fernando.
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