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  #1  
Old 12-10-2008, 05:42 PM
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Arrow The 'D' Neck issue..

Well, first off I have to say that my original teachings do not fully agree with the way and/or method in which a D-Neck is measured or what a D-Neck actually is at the Heel.

Here's my take on this. The hand position as taught to me has the thumb behind the upper edge of your 2nd finger or behind it, NOT behind the first finger! With the thumb in the Heel of the Neck with normal left hand playing position, the 1st finger will be a D-note and the 2nd finger parallel to the thumb or close to it will be an Eb. With the current method of measuring the Note parallel to the thumb what was taught to me as a D-Neck is called an Eb Neck. The main contradiction I have is that when I play the D on that Neck, My thumb is already on the Heel. If I want to play an F with the 4th finger, it is a bit of a stretch if the parallel note to the Hell is a D and not an Eb. If the note at the Heel is a D, then with proper hand positioning having the thumb parallel behind the 2nd finger or close to it the 1st finger is playing a Db. Why isn't that called a Db Neck then? Is measuring the Heel stop NOT related to playing with proper technique?

Every Bass I play with the so-called D-Neck feels short to me and hard to reach the F note on the G and even harder to play across the strings in that position. Maybe it's because I grew up on this type of Neck and playing position which is different from 'Luthier position'..

Wouldn't it be nice if we were all n the same page? I asked one older Luthier about this and how we all of a sudden lost the old traditional D-Neck (or was it really 'Eb Luthier minor b6') and he said "it's the Teachers"!..

I like having the Eb parallel to my first finger in the Heel or 2nd finger with proper hand positioning. This is how I learned and played in the beginning. My old Italian Bass was closer to a Db-Neck to me just after its restoration in 1973 but the length was shortened from 44" to just a bit over 42". On that Bass, I re-cut the Heel myself and moved the Bridge to the top of the Notches. It was not 'perfect' but I got used to it. The sound was 'heaven' so all was forgiven.

The 2 Basses I have now that have what I consider a 'proper' D-Neck (Luthiers Eb) are my Batchelder and Hart. These are the most comfortable for note climbing between the lower and upper/thumb positions. When playing the shorter D-version, I feel that I need an extra stretch or shift to play over the shoulders.

So, did this all change at some point or are there just different languages between playing and set-up between Luthiers and Players?
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:48 AM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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The current "standard" for a D neck is for the first finger to encounter D on the G string at the heel when said first finger is directly across from the thumb. I also was taught the Simandl "claw" where your second finger is across from the thumb, but current teaching seems to have standardized a more relaxed left hand technique where the thumb is either across from the first finger or hanging back some toward the nut. I have one client who uses the Streicher method and whenever he plays one of my necks he swears it's an Eb neck! His bass has a really flat D.

What it all boils down to is setting up the heel so the player is comfortable. Good players get used to anything, and many don't even know what "D neck" means. When necking a bass to be marketed, I believe it should be set up to the current "standard". Wood can always be removed, but you can't put it back.
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Old 12-11-2008, 11:12 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
The current "standard" for a D neck is for the first finger to encounter D on the G string at the heel when said first finger is directly across from the thumb. I also was taught the Simandl "claw" where your second finger is across from the thumb, but current teaching seems to have standardized a more relaxed left hand technique where the thumb is either across from the first finger or hanging back some toward the nut. I have one client who uses the Streicher method and whenever he plays one of my necks he swears it's an Eb neck! His bass has a really flat D.

What it all boils down to is setting up the heel so the player is comfortable. Good players get used to anything, and many don't even know what "D neck" means. When necking a bass to be marketed, I believe it should be set up to the current "standard". Wood can always be removed, but you can't put it back.
This is what I thought but I don't agree on the method change of how to measure a D. In my opinion Arnold, and you know first hand how I personally feel about it, there is 'nothing' 'relaxed' about stretching to play across the 5th Position (Simandl 'Claw' V) with the first finger on the F of the A-string and the 4th finger playing the octave F on the G-string with all the other notes in between on the D-string etc. Playing Jazz often crosses the upper strings more often when playing octave lines and riffs while in Classical playing it is done less often while moving around. Playing the 5th position on the E string is a real strain on the E-string with a D-Neck as they call it now.

I am aware of the various modern styles of playing today mainly incorporated for Solo playing but having played in Orchestra now for the last 5 years, I haven't seen the need for me to personally change anything. I played a fine old Italian Bass one day in Philly as it was brought off stage (Philly Orch. Bass) and noticed two things. This Orchestra veteran's Bass had not only an Eb neck but a string length near 42.5-43". I mentioned about the Hell being cut way down and the length being long. His reaction, "I like it that way"!.. So, I guess I am not alone with the so called Eb Neck preference. My Hart has it but my Gilkes is sort of in between.

I have been practicing with the Batchelder since I wrote this thread and find that I prefer the Eb Neck (as it's called now) for all types of playing, Orchestra and Jazz..
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Old 12-11-2008, 06:50 PM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
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Yes, many players like an Eb neck because of enhanced ease playing in those transition positions. But the D has become a guidepost for many, and is now the standard. Another thing to consider is that many bass bodies will not accept an Eb neck because there won't be any heel left, especially if the maker designed it with a D neck in mind. In fact I have a bass on my bench which was made by a contemporary maker. The owner insisted on an Eb neck and the result is a very short heel with little strength, as there is a high overstand. That's an accident waiting to happen.
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Old 12-11-2008, 08:12 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
Yes, many players like an Eb neck because of enhanced ease playing in those transition positions. But the D has become a guidepost for many, and is now the standard. Another thing to consider is that many bass bodies will not accept an Eb neck because there won't be any heel left, especially if the maker designed it with a D neck in mind. In fact I have a bass on my bench which was made by a contemporary maker. The owner insisted on an Eb neck and the result is a very short heel with little strength, as there is a high overstand. That's an accident waiting to happen.
Yes, I can see the design problems but I have longer Neck'd Basses with the Eb as well. The problem with them was usually the String length. My Loveri has a longish Neck so the easiest fix was a 'false' Ebony Nut adjoined to the regular Nut. I also did this years (actually decades) ago on a 7/8th Bass by Anton Wilfer, 1936/39? which were the early Juzek Master Art Basses. Many of the earlier Germanic Basses had 43-44" string lengths with Eb Necks. This was quite common.

Still, I have come to realize that the Eb Neck for me is my favorite for playing the upper positions and up into TP as well. I also like easy playing Basses with under 42" lengths.. Like having your Cake and eating too. Sometimes you just can't..

Arnold, thanks for your detailed and educational explanation.
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Old 07-04-2009, 02:03 PM
Pino Cazzaniga Pino Cazzaniga is offline
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This is amusing, somehow.
Here the current preference is the one you said, Ken, the thumb at the heel, the second finger opposite, the first finger plays D on the first string.
The trend is for a little stretch of the first finger toward the nut to reach D.
And we name it D neck.
There are many long neck grafts, made until the '60, where in the same position, thumb at the heel, second finger opposite, the first finger plays Eb. We name these Eb necks.
I don't know why they made these long neck grafts, probably they wanted to reach more notes with the hand at the heel in orchestra playing, and a longer string lenght for the gut strings they used these days.
Anyways, the D neck as we call it here, or the "proper" D neck you said, allow us some freedom to find a better balance for middle positions, where some variables are neck height over the top, body outline near the neck, string lenght, bridge height, stop lenght and so on.
It's over the standard, a good reason to play and work on basses, I hope.
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Old 07-04-2009, 02:24 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pino Cazzaniga View Post
This is amusing, somehow.
Here the current preference is the one you said, Ken, the thumb at the heel, the second finger opposite, the first finger plays D on the first string.
The trend is for a little stretch of the first finger toward the nut to reach D.
And we name it D neck.
There are many long neck grafts, made until the '60, where in the same position, thumb at the heel, second finger opposite, the first finger plays Eb. We name these Eb necks.
I don't know why they made these long neck grafts, probably they wanted to reach more notes with the hand at the heel in orchestra playing, and a longer string lenght for the gut strings they used these days.
Anyways, the D neck as we call it here, or the "proper" D neck you said, allow us some freedom to find a better balance for middle positions, where some variables are neck height over the top, body outline near the neck, string lenght, bridge height, stop lenght and so on.
It's over the standard, a good reason to play and work on basses, I hope.
So, across the Ocean or rather Ocean'S, my idea of the 'Original' 'D-Neck' verses the 'Modern' 'D-Neck' can be easily explained;
Original D = Modern Eb.
Modern Eb = Original E.
Modern D = Original Db.

I can't tell you what a struggle it is going over the shoulders to the F# or G when climbing up the Neck of a modern D vs. an Original D or modern Eb. I sop much prefer the Eb at the heel for the lower positions to Thumb positions. Takes a half step out and some physical mass as well.
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Old 07-04-2009, 03:46 PM
Calvin Marks Calvin Marks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
So, across the Ocean or rather Ocean'S, my idea of the 'Original' 'D-Neck' verses the 'Modern' 'D-Neck' can be easily explained;
Original D = Modern Eb.
Modern Eb = Original E.
Modern D = Original Db.

I can't tell you what a struggle it is going over the shoulders to the F# or G when climbing up the Neck of a modern D vs. an Original D or modern Eb. I sop much prefer the Eb at the heel for the lower positions to Thumb positions. Takes a half step out and some physical mass as well.
A good rule of thumb I've found is if you can play with your thumb at the heel of the neck, D-1st finger, Eb-2nd finger, E-3rd finger, 4-4th finger...Ie. The Mahler Solo is played with full finger extensions, or if you have tiny hands/massive string length, you can use a small thumb pivot behind the neck. Also...Having the ability WITHOUT pivoting your thumb at all, to play four finger technique starting on D, Eb and E is imperative.

I prefer an Eb neck because I like to have my thumb behind my 2nd finger. Most Viennese basses and students of the Streicher technique will use a bass with an Eb neck.

An Eb neck keeps your hand position consistent all the way up the string. I always play with my thumb behind my 2nd finger. If I want to play a D on the G string all I have to think about is thumb in the crook and the first finger behind it, just like it would be if I were playing in half position...

Then again, I don't even know if this is called an Eb neck or not...This is confusing!


Eb neck - Thumb in crook, 2nd finger across from thumb on Eb, 1st finger behind thumb on D.
D neck...Then what's a D neck?

Last edited by Calvin Marks; 07-04-2009 at 04:01 PM.
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Old 07-04-2009, 04:11 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin Marks View Post
A good rule of thumb I've found is if you can play with your thumb at the heel of the neck, D-1st finger, Eb-2nd finger, E-3rd finger, 4-4th finger...Ie. The Mahler Solo is played with full finger extensions, or if you have tiny hands/massive string length, you can use a small thumb pivot behind the neck. Also...Having the ability WITHOUT pivoting your thumb at all, to play four finger technique starting on D, Eb and E is imperative.

I prefer an Eb neck because I like to have my thumb behind my 2nd finger. Most Viennese basses and students of the Streicher technique will use a bass with an Eb neck.

An Eb neck keeps your hand position consistent all the way up the string. I always play with my thumb behind my 2nd finger. If I want to play a D on the G string all I have to think about is thumb in the crook and the first finger behind it, just like it would be if I were playing in half position...

Then again, I don't even know if this is called an Eb neck or not...This is confusing!


Eb neck - Thumb in crook, 2nd finger across from thumb on Eb, 1st finger behind thumb on D.
D neck...Then what's a D neck?
What's a D? Which century? To me the Neck SHOULD be one way, Eb at the heel, D with 2nd finger, period. The you can play the 4th finger across all 4 strings easily with the 1st still in place. With the modern D it's a strain especially on the E and A strings. Descending passages always makes it more noticeable climbing down from TP to reg. pos.

Mahler is played as it is played, no one way. I play D-1, pivot to E-2 and F-4 for the first 3 notes. I rarely use the 3rd finger. I find pivoting to be easier and more accurate than trying to stretch my fingers in an unnatural position. Intonation is my concern, not convenience.
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Old 07-04-2009, 04:17 PM
Calvin Marks Calvin Marks is offline
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
What's a D? Which century? To me the Neck SHOULD be one way, Eb at the heel, D with 2nd finger, period. The you can play the 4th finger across all 4 strings easily with the 1st still in place. With the modern D it's a strain especially on the E and A strings. Descending passages always makes it more noticeable climbing down from TP to reg. pos.

Mahler is played as it is played, no one way. I play D-1, pivot to E-2 and F-4 for the first 3 notes. I rarely use the 3rd finger. I find pivoting to be easier and more accurate than trying to stretch my fingers in an unnatural position. Intonation is my concern, not convenience.
You don't stretch your fingers in an unnatural way, you relax your joints and open your hand. I don't know how you can play any hard Mozart Symphony without knowing the Four Finger Technique at the heel. Also, in the Mahler Solo, I've seen most people play it (1-3-4) because audition committees don't want to hear a slide of any sort. Your hand never remains "static"...depending on your hand size or string length, your hand moves around the neck like a boxer would in the wring.

Also, I have no strain at all playing across all four strings with my thumb at the crook and my first finger on either Db, D, Eb or E
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Old 07-04-2009, 04:24 PM
Calvin Marks Calvin Marks is offline
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Ken, it sounds like the problem your having has to do with having a fairly low block height. It can be incredibly difficult to play on the E and A string if the overstand and block height is low. I don't think this has to do with an Eb or D neck...more so a hand clearance issue.
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Old 07-04-2009, 05:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Calvin Marks View Post
Ken, it sounds like the problem your having has to do with having a fairly low block height. It can be incredibly difficult to play on the E and A string if the overstand and block height is low. I don't think this has to do with an Eb or D neck...more so a hand clearance issue.
It is the Heel, trust me. Eb necks are easier to play for me than Ds regardless. I know all about Blocks and Overstand. I have had more basses modified than most people have owned.

I play on many old basses and have what ever the bass has as far as blocks, necks and heels. Some can be modified and some can't. Staying at under 42" SL maximum is always a goal and sometimes limits the results.

This is another subject but thanks for the thought. Come by some day and when we play together you will see what I mean. Maybe then you might have a helpful suggestion but it has to be for the bass I am playing and not one I would design or have made.
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Old 09-20-2009, 03:02 PM
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It's final now if it ever was. The Eb for me is the way to go. maybe it's just the Basses I have here i am judging this by but the Necks that I like playing most are Eb or close to it.

Currently I am playing 'only' my English 'Hart bass which has an Eb Neck. I had put this Bass aside do to the slightly wider shoulders but not that I've gotten a bit more used to it, going back to a smaller shouldered bass with a 'D' neck sends me right back to the Hart. It used to be the other way around but things are a changing..

By the way, on this Eb neck, with proper hand position with my Thumb opposite the 2nd finger, my 1st finger plays the 'D' while my 2nd is on the Eb.
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Old 09-21-2009, 09:21 AM
Pino Cazzaniga Pino Cazzaniga is offline
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Default Fingerings

Well, I realize now that my necks are not D nor Eb.
As most of my clients use a 1 3 4 fingering, they may play D with the first finger and Eb with the third finger.
And I place the thumb at the heel opposite to the second finger.
Seems to be halfway...
A widening technique is also teached, to play an half tone per finger.
And, according to the score, people use mixed different fingerings.
I'm not a musician, so I can't go further, but things are still developing, so I expect different demands.
Arnold's "You can't put the wood back" is probably the right advice here.
A related issue I'm wondering about is the SL/Body Stop ratio.
The standard for cello is 1,75. For basses I found anything from 1,75 to 1,8.
I think ( I hope ) that it will be not standardized, as it's due to many variables, but I wonder about the tone and maybe the wolf tones effects, if any.
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Old 09-21-2009, 01:25 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Pino Cazzaniga View Post
Well, I realize now that my necks are not D nor Eb.
As most of my clients use a 1 3 4 fingering, they may play D with the first finger and Eb with the third finger.
And I place the thumb at the heel opposite to the second finger.
Seems to be halfway...
A widening technique is also teached, to play an half tone per finger.
And, according to the score, people use mixed different fingerings.
I'm not a musician, so I can't go further, but things are still developing, so I expect different demands.
Arnold's "You can't put the wood back" is probably the right advice here.
A related issue I'm wondering about is the SL/Body Stop ratio.
The standard for cello is 1,75. For basses I found anything from 1,75 to 1,8.
I think ( I hope ) that it will be not standardized, as it's due to many variables, but I wonder about the tone and maybe the wolf tones effects, if any.
Let me tell you that when I bought the Hart Bass, Arnold and I discussed putting another Neck in the Bass to make it under 42" and a 'D' Neck as well. The bass sat in the shop for several months while he was completing the work on my Gilkes which is actually between a 'D' and 'Eb' stop but closer to Eb.

Sometime before starting the restoration on the Hart I pulled the Bass out from the corner where it was 'parked' and felt the Neck and as I was talking with Arnold who mentioned what a beautiful piece of wood the Neck was. At that moment I said, "leave this Neck as-is", saving me a few thousand dollars on the new Graft expense.

Now, it's the most comfortable Neck I have seconded by the Gilkes. For me, the Eb works best. When I was younger (a teen) starting out playing Jazz we (the players in NY) used to play the 'F' on the A-string playing across the D and G-strings playing the C-5th and Eb to F-octave type of bass line back then known as The Boogaloo. It have a beat to it.. lol.. (:F, C Eb f, f-f C-Eb-f: .. remember?.. lol),.., Can't play that line on no 'D' neck without a stretch..

I think most of the Ampeg Baby Basses had Eb necks as well from what I remember. But with proper hand position, it was really a D where the 1st finger went. We never talked about this Eb or D thing back then or at least not that I recall. Now it's a big deal to some people.
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Old 09-15-2013, 01:05 AM
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Lightbulb 4 years later..

Well, 4 years later, the Hart with the "Eb" neck is still my favorite all time comfortable Neck heel.

I was just reading Elgar's 2nd book, "More about the Double Bass" (c. 1960's) and in the section about various items to look for when shopping for a bass he mentions the neck heel.

Now, this is England c.1960 but the playing style is from the first half+ of the 20th century. He mentions that you need to play the D comfortably with the thumb on the curve of the heel with the middle finger (2nd?) opposite the thumb and playing the D with the first finger.

Elgar is describing what I have been talking about. The regular playing position with the 2nd finger opposite the thumb (or close to it) and the first finger behind the thumb (not parallel to it) while playing the D.

Now, depending on the size of your fingers and how you play, some people refer to the modern "D" neck as an actual Db neck. Some basses I have had restored with new "D" necks were not as easy for me to play as they were before. So, I just thought I would mention that half a century ago, Elgar put this "D" neck business in writing and I have a copy of the book since High School.
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