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  #1  
Old 03-28-2013, 02:17 PM
Gunter Grass Gunter Grass is offline
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Default need help for idendification of a bass: italian or fake (hungarian)

need help for idendification of a bass: italian or fake (hungarian) dear folks,

i am not sure how to post a new thread, so i am trying to find some answers here! there are a lot of fake basses around and i need some opinions from some pro´s like ken.... here are some pics of the bass which is presented as an old italian bass. there are some characteristics that it could be italian but very hard to really be sure. i would be very thankfull for infos what kind of bass this could be. thanx in advance.
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  #2  
Old 03-28-2013, 02:20 PM
Gunter Grass Gunter Grass is offline
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Default need help for idendification of a bass: italian or fake (hungarian)

some more pics from inside.......

thank you in advance!!!
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  #3  
Old 03-28-2013, 06:05 PM
Gunter Grass Gunter Grass is offline
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thank you ken for opening this thread for me. that´s great.
i would be very happy for any information about age, origin, specific woods used or purffling...i can get.

thank you,

gunter
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  #4  
Old 03-28-2013, 06:07 PM
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Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
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Lightbulb It's a fake

The wood looks to be acid treated inside to make it look old. Take the bass apart and scrape the top down and re-graduate it slightly and smell the fresh Pine wood.

The Scroll is Hungarian style, something you will not usually see on an old Italian.

When you remove the Top, you might learn how poorly the blocks and braces were fitted. That is common with some of these fakes and copies. Also, in time, things will move and come apart. Maybe not so much in a more humid place like Germany or Italy but in NE USA, this would come apart in a year going thru the seasons.
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Old 03-28-2013, 06:11 PM
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Lightbulb age n woods?

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunter Grass View Post
thank you ken for opening this thread for me. that´s great.
i would be very happy for any information about age, origin, specific woods used or purffling...i can get.

thank you,

gunter
I can't tell exactly the woods from those pictures but the bass seems fairly new. Old Hungarian basses look Hungarian. Old Italian basses look Italian. This looks like a recent fake.
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  #6  
Old 03-28-2013, 06:26 PM
Gunter Grass Gunter Grass is offline
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well, thats a clear message. not even an old fake.
it´s discusting how many fakes of old basses are floating around.
i had hope that it could be a simply build old bass, but i was wrong.
thank you very much for sharing your experience.
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  #7  
Old 03-28-2013, 06:33 PM
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Cool

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunter Grass View Post
well, thats a clear message. not even an old fake.
it´s discusting how many fakes of old basses are floating around.
i had hope that it could be a simply build old bass, but i was wrong.
thank you very much for sharing your experience.
I have seen here in USA fakes selling for $25,000, $50,000 and even heard of one that was $160,000 where the customer though they bought a real famous made old bass. I think if you cross the street with a red light against you, the punishment is more than selling a fake bass. No one I know has gone to Jail yet but I know some of the dealers that sell these fakes. I have had them myself and sold them as new-made basses, antiqued to look old and at a reasonable price for the bass what it was. They can sound good but we had to restore and repair them here first before selling.
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  #8  
Old 03-28-2013, 06:55 PM
Gunter Grass Gunter Grass is offline
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well, i am happy i have not bought it. i think another problem is, that some people (including me) are hoping to find some treasure hidden somewhere and making a great deal, but you have to be more than lucky finding a rare bass for a few hundred bucks.

anyway, hope never dies i guess!
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  #9  
Old 03-28-2013, 09:55 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunter Grass View Post
well, i am happy i have not bought it. i think another problem is, that some people (including me) are hoping to find some treasure hidden somewhere and making a great deal, but you have to be more than lucky finding a rare bass for a few hundred bucks.

anyway, hope never dies i guess!
More basses, even real ones that are old are more often sold as a more famous maker than the bass actually is. Then there are the dealers, some of them the same on occasion, that just come up with never before seen basses from famous makers as well. Like you said, as if hidden away in time till now.

If you believe that, I have a winning Lottery ticket I will sell you for half price.
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  #10  
Old 07-01-2013, 09:54 AM
Martin Sheridan Martin Sheridan is offline
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Default fake?

Just came across this thread. Antiquing a bass is not the same as trying to pass it off as old. Did the seller say it was old? Was the seller himself knowledgeable? Too me it looks like the bass was just stained with a very dark oil bass stain. Old basses look much different and it may take you awhile to learn how to see them. They will usually have many old cracks in the top and the sides especially at the bottom bouts. If it's a flat back it will often have old cracks in the back. As wood ages it turns brown and the older it is the darker it is. Plus both inside and outside it going to pick up a lot of dirt. The bass you picture is a new bass with a stain and some shading.

There are contemporary makers who can do a really good job distressing and instrument to look old. Many of these makers have seen the originals and might even have one in their shop. I know of no American maker who is trying to make fakes.

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  #11  
Old 11-02-2013, 08:30 AM
Gunter Grass Gunter Grass is offline
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Default another one: need help!!!

dear folks,

somebody offered me another bass. the seller told me that this is an old italian or english bass. again, i am not sure if this is a fake. very hard to tell!
to me it definetly looks old, but the back of the bass looks a little strange?
i would be thankfull for any ideas or identification-marks! my eyes are not experienced enough to really tell.

thank you in advance!
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  #12  
Old 11-02-2013, 08:32 AM
Gunter Grass Gunter Grass is offline
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Default more pics

here is more:
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  #13  
Old 11-02-2013, 10:12 AM
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Cool same work.. fake fake fake

This bass has the same type of work as the other. Possibly the same guy in Hungary made both. If the bass is not close to $100k-$400k and has some history of where it has been and who played it, it is not an old Italian or English bass. Old basses don't just pop up from no where.

Now, I have seen a few, bought and sold a few and even have a few old looking recently made basses. I sell them as new basses that are made to look old but never represent them as being old. If you like the bass and it sounds good, buy it at the right price. But, don't go thinking that you might have a Busan or Goffriller for a steal at 1/10th the price.

One of the best restorers and makers in Europe is now also working in his 2nd Berlin shop as well as in Hungary, back and forth. Raez Barnabez. He is one of the guys that can tell what is fake or not because he knows the guys in Hungary that are doing this kind of work. Ask him!
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Old 11-02-2013, 01:16 PM
Gunter Grass Gunter Grass is offline
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dear ken,

thank you, very much for your opinion. even though i have seen and played quite a large number of basses, it´s still hard to tell what is fake and what not (just from looking at pics). the top looks quite old, but the back and the fakt that there are no cracks at all is very strange. anyway, thank you again.
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  #15  
Old 11-02-2013, 02:19 PM
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Lightbulb aging

Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunter Grass View Post
dear ken,

thank you, very much for your opinion. even though i have seen and played quite a large number of basses, it´s still hard to tell what is fake and what not (just from looking at pics). the top looks quite old, but the back and the fakt that there are no cracks at all is very strange. anyway, thank you again.
The Top is a softer wood and cracks easier than the hardwood back. Round backs do not crack as much as flat backs. Cracks can be put into new basses and new basses can also be made with cracked and distorted wood to fake aging. A genuine old bass will show its distortion and condition over time depening on how it was cared for.

In Hungary, people there make from about $400-$600 a month in income from what I was told by Hungarians, Luthiers, Doctors, anyone, unless you have some other business on the side with the outside world. They are 100 years behind the world 'we' live in. To make a fake bass is their goal, those makers. Survival is to fake and make more money even if it takes 2-3 months to make it. Not all the Luthiers in Hungary are fakers, just some of them. They even take new basses from Romania and fake them as well to look old. I have seen them and had 2 of them here.

As for finding a good deal on a real old Italian bass, good luck. You will need it. lol
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  #16  
Old 11-03-2013, 06:41 AM
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hello gunther,

interesting bass. would you tell me who is the seller?
pm would be ok. thanks.
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Old 11-04-2013, 12:17 PM
Gunter Grass Gunter Grass is offline
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sorry for the late reply. the seller is private, although he sells more often basses and sends me emails if he offers one. i could ask him if its ok if i send you his contact info.

regards
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  #18  
Old 11-04-2013, 01:09 PM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Gunter Grass View Post
sorry for the late reply. the seller is private, although he sells more often basses and sends me emails if he offers one. i could ask him if its ok if i send you his contact info.

regards
There are many people around the world as well as shops now trying to pass off these fakes as real. I was just offered several basses from Italy and each of the basses claiming to be old Italian were in my opinion new Hungarian or slightly older Hungarian or German. Not one was Italian or near the age claimed.

People can make a business selling new basses as old. I have several NEW basses in stock that were made to look old and I sell them as new. I also have some that were re-built with some old parts like original top and back and new ribs and re-built scroll or pegbox from other basses. These we call Composite basses with mixed parts new and old. I can sell them as all old and original but that would be a lie and no one would know but me and the maker. Only an expert or many of them together can map out the forensics of what this bass is an was. I have the recipe from the people that sold me the basses so it is passed on honestly and without deception. Be careful with people that always have old basses without cracks and distress from age.
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Old 11-05-2013, 03:07 PM
Pino Cazzaniga Pino Cazzaniga is offline
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[quote=Ken Smith;26737]There are many people around the world as well as shops now trying to pass off these fakes as real. I was just offered several basses from Italy and each of the basses claiming to be old Italian were in my opinion new Hungarian or slightly older Hungarian or German.


I hope that there is no italian luthier involved in this kind of deal, which is unfair to both musicians and makers.

About three years ago a customer of mine bought one of these basses from Hungary, which he found on the internet.

The seller said him that it was old, "probably" italian, found in a Church. The musician did not tell anything to anybody, went in Hungary and bought the bass, for a very low price.

The instrument was new and quite heavy, but the sound was good enough to give it a try.

We did some minor repairs and waited an year to be sure not to waste time, then I did some other small repairs and a massive set up work, and at last the bass was good.

So good actually that the musician wanted to contact the seller to let the original luthier make another one, new, not antiqued, and with his label inside.

Now, the musician is a good and well known one, so there was an opportunity for the luthier to get a better market and develop his work.
Well, once he was contacted, the seller disappeared, no more email address, no phone number, nothing.


The musician is still playing that bass, but he paid it much more than its market value, if you consider repairs, waiting time, set up, travel to and from Hungary. Besides, the sound is luckily good, but the bass is heavy to carry around.

The original maker earned, I think, a fraction of the original low price, and did not have or even know of any chance to develop his work.

So, nobody is really happy with that deal.
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