Ken's Corner (Bass Forums Sponsored By KSB)

Go Back   Ken's Corner (Bass Forums Sponsored By KSB) > Double Basses > Double Bass Talk in General

Reply
 
Thread Tools Display Modes
  #1  
Old 11-29-2008, 04:10 AM
Aaron Allen Aaron Allen is offline
Junior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 11-29-2008
Location: austin texas
Posts: 2
Aaron Allen is on a distinguished road
Default Need info on the history of steel strings, amps in jazz

Hey All,
Im writing a paper for school about ways in which technology has affected the way the double bass is played in jazz and could use some help. two of the subjects Im discussing are string construction and use of amplification. I need to know when exactly steel strings came onto the market (i think it was some time during the 50's but a more specific date is what im after) and any info about how jazz players at this time responded to them: did many switch to all steel right away or was it more typical to have steel on the bottom strings but keep the gut on top? Regarding amplification, I know that early players such as Blanton played totally acoustic but what about bassists in the 40's, 50's, and 60's? Was their stage volume acoustic but then they played into a mic that went into some speakers out front or ...? Any help on this would be greatly appreciated!
-Aaron
Reply With Quote
  #2  
Old 11-29-2008, 11:16 AM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool well..

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Allen View Post
Hey All,
Im writing a paper for school about ways in which technology has affected the way the double bass is played in jazz and could use some help. two of the subjects Im discussing are string construction and use of amplification. I need to know when exactly steel strings came onto the market (i think it was some time during the 50's but a more specific date is what im after) and any info about how jazz players at this time responded to them: did many switch to all steel right away or was it more typical to have steel on the bottom strings but keep the gut on top? Regarding amplification, I know that early players such as Blanton played totally acoustic but what about bassists in the 40's, 50's, and 60's? Was their stage volume acoustic but then they played into a mic that went into some speakers out front or ...? Any help on this would be greatly appreciated!
-Aaron
I think to get even close on this we needs some old timers, really old I mean. Actually, I sub for one on occasion and can ask him. He's 93-94 now and still plays. I was doing a gig with a Concert Band one night and he came up to me on the break. He asked if I could sub for him on occasion on his monthly jazz trio gig. Well, the piano player is his son who is older then me but the jazz was more cocktail lounge type as the gig was in a Holiday Inn restaurant. I will work with his son next month and ask someone who has actually lived it, not just read about it.

I played Gut Strings in High School Jazz band in the late '60s as well as Gut in Orchestra. Steel was around but these old Basses in School all had Guts on them. In 1966 when I bought my first Bass from the Juzek firm in NYC, it came with steels. All of their Basses did unless you requested Gut.

I had a very old Amp as well at one time. It was whitish colored with sawdust mixed in the paint. A 10 watt, 15in speaker bass amp combo called 'The Ampeg Bass Amp', made by 'The Ampeg Bass Amp Co., NY, NY.

I picked that up from an old timer along with a Kay Bass that had an Endpin microphone up inside the Bass. That was from the 1940s or so as was the Amp I believe if not the early 50s. I don't recall now if the Bass was strung with Guts or Steels.

I watched many older Jazz players in NY including Wilber Ware and Sam Jones. They all players Steel but this was 1970 already. I even met Arvel Shaw and he was doing steels already.

I seems that when Steel came in, the Bass crowd was liberated and after switching the didn't look back.

Here are a few things to factor in as well..
1) The music was changing as well, not just the equipment.
2) The role of the Bass also advanced with more Solo and intro stuff even in the big bands and with Pop singers.
3) The Amps in the old days were no where near as good and nor were the Bass speakers.
4) The set-up of Basses changed drastically as well. Basses were often 43" and 44" string lengths and no one bothered to measure. You just played what you had, period. Many of the guys in the older bands played big basses to get that bigger sound, with gut strings and higher action. Just listen and watch to Arvel Shaw in the movie with Louie Armstrong 'High Society'.
5) The style in which they plucked then was more of a slap style that got more sound out as well. Somewhat similar to an Orchestral pluck but tapping the string between notes keeping the beat and a bit harder usually.

Do a UTube search for Milt Hinton and Slam Stewart.

6) The way we play now is more like a bunch of wimps as compared to these older guys bearing the elements bass-wise.. lol

7) But, you can't play the new Bass type jazz played since Scotty with that old method or set-up.

I was at a Bass Camp earlier this year where Brian Bromberg talked about Ray Brown's later revised concept.. 'Lower your action and get an Amp!.. Why kill yourself?'

The Evolution of the Bass in todays usage which is in the Orchestras as well with the Steels and lower action, is much like that of transportation or Life in general.

We now have running water, electricity, Cars in stead of Horses to get places and modern medicine (for most).. Penicillin.. lol

One seasoned Orchestra player while recently visiting a Bass shop picked up a Bass to try with Gut strings and commented "Now I remember why we got rid of those wretched strings".

I hope this helps as a general outline but feel free to ask about specific areas on which I've touched, or not touched if you like.
Reply With Quote
  #3  
Old 11-29-2008, 10:47 PM
Aaron Allen Aaron Allen is offline
Junior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 11-29-2008
Location: austin texas
Posts: 2
Aaron Allen is on a distinguished road
Default

Ken,
Thanks alot for your reply! Im still curious about how bassists were heard in the old days. From looking at pictures and videos, they are not using an amp and are just playing into a mic. Was the signal from this mic sent to some speakers for the audience, or was it just for recording purposes and any bass that the audience got was purely acoustic? I want to know if guys like PC, Sam Jones, Doug Watkins, LaFaro, etc were playing totally acoustic, in which case a lot of what they were doing in live situations was probably lost to the audience. Or was there some kind of reinforcement so that what the audience heard was more like the records from that time where the bass is heard much clearer and louder due to the proximity of a mic?
Thanks for your help,
Aaron
Reply With Quote
  #4  
Old 11-30-2008, 12:58 AM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool humm

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Allen View Post
Ken,
Thanks alot for your reply! Im still curious about how bassists were heard in the old days. From looking at pictures and videos, they are not using an amp and are just playing into a mic. Was the signal from this mic sent to some speakers for the audience, or was it just for recording purposes and any bass that the audience got was purely acoustic? I want to know if guys like PC, Sam Jones, Doug Watkins, LaFaro, etc were playing totally acoustic, in which case a lot of what they were doing in live situations was probably lost to the audience. Or was there some kind of reinforcement so that what the audience heard was more like the records from that time where the bass is heard much clearer and louder due to the proximity of a mic?
Thanks for your help,
Aaron
I will have to make an assumption here. When they had a Mic, it was probably pumped into the house system and/or for recording if it was being recorded. I had seen quite a few live performances in my early days where there were no Amps or Mics at all. How much Bass was heard? Not much if at all. Was it felt? Maybe, slightly..

I played in Jazz Band at school with Guts and no amp. I don't think the Bass was heard that much either but if heard, was more of a whisper as compared to the thick recorded sound you hear on a re-mixed Ray Charles record. The importance of hearing more Bass I think is a new thing.

I remember one guy who was rehearsing at a studio and was bragging about his Bass. First off, it was a pretty looking Gamba style 3/4 with a nice Lions head at the top. He bragged how great his 'Italian' (some name that didn't exist) Bass cut thru a big band without a Mic or Amp. The funny thing was I couldn't even head him in that room playing with a trio. When I worked in the Pit for a week playing for Linda Hopkins who opened for Sammy Davis Jr. I had the pleasure to meet Al McKibbon who was Sammy's bassist then. He was also the Bassist with Ray Charles earlier and had a fairly nice Bass that he called a Stainer. It is for sale now as such which I highly doubt it is even from that century let alone a real Stainer. Players back then in Jazz (and Classical) often bragged about what kind of Bass they had. Often it was due to being ripped off at the time of sale. Examples include Milt Hinton's so called Goffriller which in my opinion is a Germanic type Bohemian Bass and also Ray Brown's Amati which we all in the business believe it to be of British origin. Gary Karr's Amati is another Myth in the Bass world.

I just had to go there for a minute because the player's ego often sounds louder or better in ones head than does the Bass to the audience listening. I remember hearing from Band leaders in my early days 'the Bass is too loud' while playing. To me, it was barely loud enough to carry the band. In their mind, the Bass was acoustic and the Amp was an annoyance to the Horns who in my opinion always dragged the beat. The Bass got in their way as it plays actual notes along with the drums playing time. Notes and time equals exposure to the horns which was a threat to them as they preferred to lay back and blow on the beat or around it rather than on top of the beat so they were heard in time.

The music played with the acoustic non-amped Bass includes small combos as well. I played many a duo and trio in NY clubs either as the actual bassist or just sitting in. There were no Mics or amps that I can remember and these include some pretty big names in Jazz.

Even on old big band or pop singer recordings from the 40s, 50s and 60s, the Bass is barely heard and they had a Mic in most cases. Many of them recorded on one track, two and four with only later stuff being 8 tracks. I remember 16 being the norm until about 1975 when the 24 track boards hit the studios. Sometimes, the Bass was only as loud as it could be heard acoustically because they didn't have a way back then to bring it up in the mix. Why? Because there was very little mixing capabilities to begin with back then.

Take any Bass and play it with low action of about 3-4mm on the G-string and then hear the volume change with the same Bass at 7-10mm under the G. Then imagine having gut strings at 15-20mm off the FB at the end and try playing a solo in thumb position.. lol

It just wasn't done. The Bass was not played like that in jazz back then. Our own Carlos Henriquez today is playing with Guts, higher action (not 20mm I hope) and totally acoustic with Wynton Marsalis. Carlos is not alone as there are many trying to re-live the days of Paul Chambers and his kind playing gut strings without an Amp. Just talk to any old timer in person who played Bass before 1950 or even 1960 for that matter and ask them what it was like. Also, the day that Steels came out was not the day that everyone switched. People do not usually change habits that easily.

I saw a beautiful French Bass one day not long ago in a shop that was getting repaired. It belonged to a current professional Orchestra player and had Gut Strings on it. This goes to show you that some still play Gut in Orchestra, not many but some. Last summer I put some Pirastro Chorda Guts on a modern Italian Bass I had and did some Concerts with it as well as several rehearsals. It was fun, it was loud but it was a test, only a test.

If you want to hear the Bass as it is heard on modern recordings, you need an Amp in most situations. If you want to play your best and use the entire Bass for jazz, you need low action Steel strings and an Amp for live playing. Anything less than that on the equipment list I believe is a strain.

I have done a few duo and trio Gigs lately without the use of an Amp. In each case, I raised my Bridge adjusters up a full turn on each side at the least. I have another duo Gig in a few weeks and will do the same. Having a nice Bass helps of course and having a loud Bass is even better. Still, I play my best on these Basses with lower string height and with less muscle playing than I would with an Amp. In Orchestra, it is mostly with a Bow and a section of Basses. Often in the Pizz sections we have to play quite loud and often do better with higher action than with lower due to the pluck style and sound volume needed acoustically.

To answer part of your question on the players list, I can say that I only saw and heard Sam Jones live and in person and he was not using an Amp. It was a duo gig both times. One time he was subbing for Reggie Workman with a Guitar/Bass duo where I would sit in each week so I know there was no amp there. The other was Piano/Bass. I also heard Major Holley in a Piano duo as well many times and would sit in weekly playing his Bass. On Reggie's gig, I played what ever Bass the player had. I also met and sat in on Wilbur Ware's Bass one night when he was filling in for Reggie as well. This is a 'dim' memory as I probably blocked it out having not liked the Bass or his set-up. Wilbur though was a legend even by that time.

Playing Bass without an Amp was quite common in the clubs in NY. I did it quite a number of times. The problem came when the band was loud and you didn't have a volume control! That sucks..
Reply With Quote
  #5  
Old 11-30-2008, 07:23 PM
Eric Hochberg Eric Hochberg is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-02-2007
Location: Winnetka, IL
Posts: 189
Eric Hochberg is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
I remember hearing from Band leaders in my early days 'the Bass is too loud' while playing. To me, it was barely loud enough to carry the band.
I used to play occasionally with the Chicago Jazz Ensemble that was led by the late Bill Russo, former arranger for Kenton. He always complained about my bass being too loud. I was playing through a tiny combo amp with a 10" speaker and could barely hear myself with the band most of the time. One of the last times I played with the band, we were in a fairly large club, the whole band, including the drums, was miked through the house system except for me. I turned my amp to a reasonable level, or so I thought, and the next thing I know he's telling me to turn the amp off, I'm too loud. Well, give me a break, acoustically I wasn't even in the mix at that point. My bass just isn't that loud.

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post
Even on old big band or pop singer recordings from the 40s, 50s and 60s, the Bass is barely heard and they had a Mic in most cases. Many of them recorded on one track, two and four with only later stuff being 8 tracks. I remember 16 being the norm until about 1975 when the 24 track boards hit the studios. Sometimes, the Bass was only as loud as it could be heard acoustically because they didn't have a way back then to bring it up in the mix. Why? Because there was very little mixing capabilities to begin with back then.
I can tell you an exception to this is an album Ellington did on Capital Records at Universal Studios in Chicago in 1954. Every sound on that side is huge, especially the bass. Don't know how they recorded it, but the sound of that album stays with me. After hearing it for the first time, I listened to a contemporary big band album recorded in NY with one of the top bands, and the sound didn't even come close to the Universal recording. It sounded puny in comparison.
__________________
Eric Hochberg
erichochberg.com
Reply With Quote
  #6  
Old 11-30-2008, 08:02 PM
Jim Lownds Jim Lownds is offline
Junior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-22-2007
Location: LaBelle, FL
Posts: 7
Jim Lownds is on a distinguished road
Default

Hi Aaron,

I'm one of those old farts that played bass in the 50's. I have to agree with everything that Ken said above. I played on guts until around '65 when I came across my first set of steel strings, and never went back. I was told that steels came out in 58 or 59, but I don't really know if that is true or not. I never played with a band in those days that had a PA system of any kind. The only mike on stage was for the vocalist and was run thru a combo amp on stage. Bands in those days were a lot more sensitive to dynamics, and didn't play nearly as loud as they do now. In the better bands, you could actually hear the bass, but the sound was not up front like it is today. And then in a lot of bands, you just couldn't hear it at all. A lot of band leaders used to buy a bass to provide to whoever they hired to play. It was usually the cheapest piece of crap they could find. Strung with guts with broken windings and action so high that it took 2 hands to stop a note. I have also known some of those band leaders, when they couldn't get a bass player for a gig, to hire a trombone or trumpet or guitar player and tell them to muffle the strings and thump on the bass. Turned it into the worlds most expensive bass drum. Hell, you couldn't hear them anyway, apparently stage dressing was important too. As far as pickups and amps go, the endpin mike that Ken mentioned is probably the oldest. I bought a used DeArmond pickup in 58 that I think was made in the late 40s. It made the bass sound more like a bad tuba than a string bass. I still have that pickup in my junk drawer where it belongs. I finally found a cheap microphone in 59 that worked pretty well thru an Epiphone 15 watt guitar amp. I have no idea who made this mike. It was in a circular semi-soft rubber case, with a red foam rubber filter over the element. The element was square, about an inch square and was all metal of some kind. It had an 8 foot cord on it with a 1/4" plug and was impervious to feedback. I just jammed it between the tailpiece and the top plate, and it served me well for many years until the Underwood came out. I don't know if this post will be of any help to you, but it's allowed me to reminisce a little bit
Reply With Quote
  #7  
Old 11-30-2008, 08:04 PM
Ken Smith's Avatar
Ken Smith Ken Smith is offline
Bassist, Luthier & Admin
 
Join Date: 01-18-2007
Location: Perkasie, PA
Posts: 4,851
Ken Smith is on a distinguished road
Cool well..

Well Eric, maybe we can assume that it was the leader or producer that would decide how loud or soft the Bass should be in the mix!

It's funny because even to this day, I enjoy playing on Gut strings. I tried some Labella's on one of my Basses a couple of years ago and enjoyed them. Outside of the office I only used them in Orchestra. I am yet to take a Gut string set-up out on a jazz gig. I only had Orchestra work lined up the two times I had Guts on the Bass.

On that Ellington record, was it Gut or Steel or could you tell?
Reply With Quote
  #8  
Old 12-01-2008, 11:36 AM
Eric Hochberg Eric Hochberg is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-02-2007
Location: Winnetka, IL
Posts: 189
Eric Hochberg is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Ken Smith View Post

On that Ellington record, was it Gut or Steel or could you tell?
I don't recall, but mid 50's would mean gut, wouldn't it? If I can locate the album I'll check it out.
__________________
Eric Hochberg
erichochberg.com
Reply With Quote
  #9  
Old 12-01-2008, 01:05 PM
Arnold Schnitzer Arnold Schnitzer is offline
Senior Posting Member
 
Join Date: 01-22-2007
Location: Putnam County, NY
Posts: 453
Arnold Schnitzer is on a distinguished road
Default

A few years ago I heard Wynton Marsalis play in a 1500-seat theater (Performing Arts Center, Purchase College). The only amplification was a speaking mike for Wynton, as he was doing a program on trumpet-playing history. Renee Rosnes was on piano, Carl Allen on drums, and Carlos Henriquez on bass (I think about 20 years old at the time!). Carlos was playing on a nice Kay with gut strings, set at medium height. The group playing was so sensitive and mindful that I could hear every note of the bass (when I wasn't concentrating on something else). This was, I believe, both a testament to Carlito's fantastic technique and sound, and to the beautiful musicianship of all the players. And the concert was not all soft stuff. There was some uptempo hard swinging going on, and again, no problem hearing enough bass. One thing I did notice was Carl Allen playing somewhat sparsely, with a very crisp ride cymbal on the hard-swinging stuff. Sometimes I think drummers try to take up too much sonic range, and their wide range of sound (rather than volume) overlaps the bass more than you want to hear. For example, a drummer who plays a lot of kick drum and rides on a riveted cymbal can be a bass killer. I don't know if this post is relevant, but I hope so...
Reply With Quote
  #10  
Old 12-01-2008, 03:31 PM
Martin Sheridan Martin Sheridan is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 11-05-2008
Location: Sycamore, Illinois
Posts: 101
Martin Sheridan is on a distinguished road
Default good vibrations

Quote:
Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg View Post
I used to play occasionally with the Chicago Jazz Ensemble that was led by the late Bill Russo, former arranger for Kenton. He always complained about my bass being too loud. I was playing through a tiny combo amp with a 10" speaker and could barely hear myself with the band most of the time. One of the last times I played with the band, we were in a fairly large club, the whole band, including the drums, was miked through the house system except for me. I turned my amp to a reasonable level, or so I thought, and the next thing I know he's telling me to turn the amp off, I'm too loud. Well, give me a break, acoustically I wasn't even in the mix at that point. My bass just isn't that loud.



I can tell you an exception to this is an album Ellington did on Capital Records at Universal Studios in Chicago in 1954. Every sound on that side is huge, especially the bass. Don't know how they recorded it, but the sound of that album stays with me. After hearing it for the first time, I listened to a contemporary big band album recorded in NY with one of the top bands, and the sound didn't even come close to the Universal recording. It sounded puny in comparison.
This phenomenom may be the result of the bass range. Since we are playing low notes they have a hugh wave curve. I think the vibration is breaking out in front of us, so the bass is heard louder a few feet out than it is where we are standing right next to it? We see the same effect when people are playing their music really loud through their car sound system. We actually hear it louder outside the car than they do in it? Thus the director who is standing out in front of the band and the bassist actually hears the bass louder than the player because the note waves are breaking nearer to him? I'm not sure if I'm saying this correctly, but I think the idea is sound. Can anyone elucidate?
Reply With Quote
  #11  
Old 12-01-2008, 03:43 PM
Martin Sheridan Martin Sheridan is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 11-05-2008
Location: Sycamore, Illinois
Posts: 101
Martin Sheridan is on a distinguished road
Default guts and steel

Quote:
Originally Posted by Aaron Allen View Post
Hey All,
Im writing a paper for school about ways in which technology has affected the way the double bass is played in jazz and could use some help. two of the subjects Im discussing are string construction and use of amplification. I need to know when exactly steel strings came onto the market (i think it was some time during the 50's but a more specific date is what im after) and any info about how jazz players at this time responded to them: did many switch to all steel right away or was it more typical to have steel on the bottom strings but keep the gut on top? Regarding amplification, I know that early players such as Blanton played totally acoustic but what about bassists in the 40's, 50's, and 60's? Was their stage volume acoustic but then they played into a mic that went into some speakers out front or ...? Any help on this would be greatly appreciated!
-Aaron
When I first started playing, my teacher George Cass, had me set up my bass with Artone guts on the D and G and Lycon steel strings on the E and A. This was in the early 70s, but George was a bassist who had started playing bass in the late 30s and had pretty much backed out of every day giging as a profession by the early 60s, so he was still doing it the old way. Even by the early 70s I think Spirocores had pretty much taken over. George still had an endpin that had an actual microphone in it that set inside the bass cavity.
I don't remember what he used as an amp because I never saw him use one. I went out one night to hear him with the LA guitarist, Johnny Guarneri (?), whom George liked to call "johnny benzedrine, and when I got out of my car I could hear him in the parking lot! He had a hell of a bass. A Jaeger from the 30s.
My first amp was the Ampeg B-15N. Wish I still had that one.
Reply With Quote
  #12  
Old 12-02-2008, 12:13 PM
Eric Hochberg Eric Hochberg is offline
Posting Member
 
Join Date: 02-02-2007
Location: Winnetka, IL
Posts: 189
Eric Hochberg is on a distinguished road
Default

Quote:
Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer View Post
Sometimes I think drummers try to take up too much sonic range, and their wide range of sound (rather than volume) overlaps the bass more than you want to hear. For example, a drummer who plays a lot of kick drum and rides on a riveted cymbal can be a bass killer.
I think this is especially true from the perspective of us jazz bassists. I was on a gig a few years ago when the drummer's kick drum beater broke and he had to play the rest of the gig with no bass drum. I could hear myself 100% better and what I was playing meant a lot more to the music than when the bass was "competing" sonically with the bass drum for a place in the music. It was also so much more comfortable to play without all of the disparate rhythmic interaction between bass and bass drum.
__________________
Eric Hochberg
erichochberg.com
Reply With Quote
Reply


Currently Active Users Viewing This Thread: 1 (0 members and 1 guests)
 
Thread Tools
Display Modes

Posting Rules
You may not post new threads
You may not post replies
You may not post attachments
You may not edit your posts

BB code is On
Smilies are On
[IMG] code is On
HTML code is Off
Forum Jump


All times are GMT -4. The time now is 01:27 PM.


Powered by vBulletin® Version 3.7.2
Copyright ©2000 - 2024, Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd.
Copyright © 2007 - Ken Smith Basses, LTD. (All Rights Reserved)