Percieved Difference in the Low end on the E string

[Jeff Gellis]

I am quite new to DB. I have been an electric player my entire musical life. I am playing a hybrid 3/4 DB.

Question is this; I hear little low end coming from my E string as compared to the other strings when playing my bass. When I amplify the bass the strings seem balanced in the low end they produce. I noticed when someone else plays my bass, the E string sounds like it has low end. I assume this has something to do with the length of the sound wave and/or the characteristic of my practice room. Does anyone else experience this or is this unusual? Ideally, I would like to hear uniform sound characteristics coming from all the strings when I play acoustically. Is this too much to ask?

Thoughts, suggestions, observations?

[Bob Branstetter]

Have you taken you bass to a luthier for a setup since you got the bass? Many times a soundpost adjustment or replacement can make a huge difference in the string balance.

Since you are new to doublebass, you may simply not pulling the strings hard enough or evenly from top to bottom. Pickups that are located close to the strings do not accurately reflect the true acoustic sound of the instrument since the pickup "hears" more of the string than sound from the body where most of the acoustic sound is produced. Even though you have many years of experience in playing electric, the touch on a doublebass is different and it takes a while to build up your hands. You might consider taking a few lessons from a good doublebass teacher. If for no other reason than preventing yourself from developing bad habits that you will regret latter.

Welcome aboard and good luck.

[Jeff Gellis]

Thanks for your insights Bob
The bass was setup by Bill Merchant, a well respected NYC luthier. He did adjust the sound post and do those things that a qualified luthier will do.

I am getting from your answer that this is not a usual phenomenon to percieve a big difference in low end on the E. Is that fair? Perhaps I need revisit Mr Merchant?

I certainly understand that technique will effect the sound produced by an instrument. Although my technique is not refined yet, this difference is definately resulting from some physical situation with the instrument/environment. I do understand the concept of properly setting the string in motion thanks to some help from Rufus Reid.

[Ken Smith]

The E string sits lower to the FB on the bridge than does the higher set A and D. The G is audible because of its higher pitch. The E on the great old Basses is felt more than heard. On less expensive production Basses, the E is often weaker as that is the most difficult string to get equal audible volume from.

Many Basses sound better from 5,10 or 20 feet away than they do when you are holding the Bass close and playing it. This is a deep note we are talking about and needs some room to spread in the air. Many Bass used in Jazz that sound good playing them, loose the sound as you move further away from it. There is a difference between spread and presence. There is also a difference between good jazz/pizz Basses and good Orchestra/bowing Basses. Those Basses that do both things well, cost more especially in the orchastral field.

The best education is to go to a shop that has basses from 5k-200k and see what the differences are. A Gagliano I played yesterday had all Spirocors on it and was used by a top Classical player. I have a Bass almost as good in sound and even deeper and wider spread on the low E but that is set up with Flexocors. Even with A Superfelxible E, it had superior spread. I have another Bass with all Superflexs and its a great Jazz Bass with most strings but needs smoother bowing strings for orchestra or it's just too bright sounding.

Bottom line? Don't expect the world from every Bass especially in the lower price ranges. Most great Jazz Basses do not work well for Orchestra unless set up completely different and vise versa. Only a small percentage of Basses do both things well and those are out of reach for most shoppers.

Have patience and find the set-up that works best for you and your Bass. A Bass that needs an Amplifier to sound good says it all right there. I don't think a sound post adjustment or any other set-up guru fix will work a miracle on a Bass like yours. Even some of the best Orchestral Bass costing 50-100k or more has their set or problems tone wise.

Weak E strings are very common. Did you know that less than 200 years ago the English refused to switch to 4-strings from 3 saying that they didn't believe any note below an 'A' or maybe G (if tuned down) can sound good and have a full fundamental? The Germans and Viennese were already coming to London with their standard 4s and some occasional 5 string Basses. Old habits die hard as they say. many of my English and Italian Basses were 3-stringers and were converted from 3 to 4 string within the last century. Some of the Scrolls are about an inch shorter in the pegbox as well.

Hang in there, the fun is just beginning. You think you have problems? Look at the threads that talk about crack repairs and restorations. I could buy a Rolls for what I spent over the last few years in repairs alone.

Another solution is to use a regular gauge set and a heavier E string. I do it all the time with great results and I am not alone on this string mixing thing.

[Jeff Gellis]

Ken, I can't thank you enough for your knowledge and willingness to share and teach!

I guess it's not fair for me to expect that my $2600 bass will be exempt from problems that effect basses costing many times that. But hey, that's why I asked the question.

Knowing this is fairly typical for inexpensive instruments is the answer I was looking for. I'm gonna try a heavier guage E. Thanks for that suggestion.

The bass sounds quite nice and from 6 to 8 feet away, there's plenty of bottom coming from the E string. FYI it's an Upton Hybrid and for a student instrument, very fairly priced I think.

I'll wait until my playing ability dictates that I start looking for a better bass. I know this bass will not be an impediment to my progress as a player.

[Bob Branstetter]

Jeff,

It sounds like you are definitely on the right track. As Ken mentioned above, you can't expect every bass to be perfect in terms of evenness. Players seldom keep the same bass throughout their playing career. Since your bass has been setup by a good luthier, use it to learn. You will most likely know when it is time to start looking at better basses.

One piece of advice for when that time does arrive. Never, ever hurry when buying a bass. Look at lots of basses and when you find one that you like, leave and come back to it after a few days or weeks and play it again. First impressions are not always reliable indicators for buying a bass.

[Ken Smith]

Hey, here's a good rule of thumb to go by and maybe help in ones patience regarding 'good things come to those who wait'.

If the Bass is not older than you, it probably is not yet broken in yet or fully settled! Bob B. and Paul W. excluded..lol

Arnie, Jeff and myself, on the fence there..

A Bass starts to mature after about 50 years old if it has been played regularly. That's why we see these old German Shop Basses like Juzeks, Wilfers, Morelli's etc that sound so good for what they are. They are finally broken in.. or, is that broken up?

Fine line there between the broken thing I just mentioned but as long as the Bass is in good repair and setup well for your style of playing, past condition is of little concern.

[Nick Hart]

A few words about the sound with a double bass. The way to tell the difference of a good bass player and a great bass player is the sound. When you have a bass that sends out good frequencies (what my teacher calls base in the sound), and a player that knows how to produce a big sound, you feel it and hear it. The best place to see how your bass sounds in a big room. The way you hear your sound under your ear is not how the audience hears it. Also, the key to a great sound, isn't necessarily raw loudness but how far it sounds. More times than not, the bigger the sound and the more space you fill with your sound, the softer it will sound under your ear.

If your bass sounds good to you from a distance than there isn't much wrong, but at the same time it can be your playing compared to somebody else's playing. Just figured I'd throw in my thoughts here about sound in a bass. Also, if you feel your bass vibrating really freely (I'm not sure how this works on hybrid or plywood's but on carved basses you can really feel them vibrating) your sound will carry.

I can go on for much longer about this topic and I have some questions myself for the resident luthiers. I might start another thread with some of my questions, not sure yet though.

Hope this helps and was relevant,
Nick

[Jeff Gellis]

If 50 years or so is a fair break-in period.... my bass is not broken in, not settled, not born yet. The bass was completed 90 days ago.

I hope that incremental improvements happen over time and I don't have to wait the full break-in period because at age 99 (I'm 49 now), I don't think I will be able to hear let alone play, a double bass.

At my funeral they can say "too bad he didn't live to hear his bass broken in"
I won't ask to be buried in it.

Great stuff, thanks all

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jeff Gellis

If 50 years or so is a fair break-in period.... my bass is not broken in, not settled, not born yet. The bass was completed 90 days ago.

I hope that incremental improvements happen over time and I don't have to wait the full break-in period because at age 99 (I'm 49 now), I don't think I will be able to hear let alone play, a double bass.

At my funeral they can say "too bad he didn't live to hear his bass broken in"
I won't ask to be buried in it.

Great stuff, thanks all

But, a bass is constantly changing and hopefully improving over time. That 50 years is just a general assumption and it doesn't just occur on it's 50th birthday. Like a person, he/she matures daily, hourly, monthly, yearly etc.

I just bought a new Bass recently and although it sounds beautiful, I know it will be sweeter and more mellow 50-100 years from now. The problem is, I won't be here to hear it! The solution, shop for an older Bass that you can afford or, just play some and see if you like the difference you are hearing.

When you play a 50, 100, 200 or 300 year old bass, you can feel the experience and hear it as well as far as the old, relaxed settled sound the Bass has. Mellowness comes in time. Greatness might come sooner!

[Matthew Tucker]

I had the same problem when I first got my ply bass. I found

- tension makes a big difference. you have to find the right tension for your top to work properly - adjusters can help you find this. On my bass, I found a higher E string made for better volume, but only so far ... as you wind it up, eventually the top just chokes up. In the end, a heavier E string helped me get the best tension at the best string height.

- a lighter tailpiece and synthetic tailgut worked wonders for my pizz sound.

- playing in the corner of room facing the wall is a good way to hear yourself better, especially low end.

For me, the E string is a litmus test of a bass. When I go into a shop, if the E string doesn't sound straight away, I can't get interested in the bass.

I just hope my home-built bass has a nice E sound

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

Originally Posted by Jeff Gellis

it's an Upton Hybrid and for a student instrument, very fairly priced I think.

Is your bass a Hawkes or one of their other hybrids? I bought a Hawkes last fall and am in love with it. Of course, every bass is different.
FWIW, I wasn't happy with the E when the bass wore Spiro Weich. With Obligatos the E is much stronger. Don't be afraid to put a heavier E on your bass; people do it all the time.
And no, the bass won't be holding you back from what I've been hearing about Upton.

End of commercial.

[Bob Rowlette]

Jeff,

I have an Upton Hawkes hybrid, and it's a great bass all things considered. It is strung with a set of Spirocore mittel (medium tension) strings on the A, D, and G. However I am using a Spirocore stark (heavy tension) E string, which I would recommend highly on that bass. The Spiro stark is very strong and powerful (stark literally means strong).

-bob

[Jeff Gellis]

Thanks Bob,
I ordered the Stark E today. I'll let you know what color smoke comes out when I string it up.

[Jeff Gellis]

I installed that Stark E today and what a difference. The E string moves the entire bass front and back. I now get the real feeling of some fundamental on the E string when I am playing acoustically.

Thanks you that advice. Great!

[Bob Rowlette]

Originally Posted by Jeff Gellis

I installed that Stark E today and what a difference. The E string moves the entire bass front and back. I now get the real feeling of some fundamental on the E string when I am playing acoustically.

Thanks you that advice. Great!

Thank you Jeff. I think I got that idea from Sam Sherry originally. Anyway, I am so glad you like the Stark E.

[David Powell]

I just wanted to echo what has been said about perception from the playing position vs. what the bass sounds like further away. I had no idea how my bass sounded until someone else plucked it while I was a good distance away. I was actually kind of startled because I realized I was probably over playing frequently in acoustic situations. I think practicing within about 4 ft of a wall with the wall to my back gives me a better idea because I get the reflection off the wall.

And yes, your bass is very young and you should be noticing changes in its' response for several months as it settles in.