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Old 11-12-2008, 10:45 AM
Martin Sheridan Martin Sheridan is offline
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Default Elgar's books

I don't know how many times I've read over the years that the attributions in Elgar's books on the double bass are not accurate. Has anyone compiled a corrected attribution list? It's another indication that we badly need the definitive book on Italian basses. And more authoritative books on all the schools.
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Old 11-12-2008, 01:09 PM
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Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan View Post
I don't know how many times I've read over the years that the attributions in Elgar's books on the double bass are not accurate. Has anyone compiled a corrected attribution list? It's another indication that we badly need the definitive book on Italian basses. And more authoritative books on all the schools.
It's not just the Italian Basses that are incorrectly named, the Hawkes he says is French with the 'F' in the Back looks 100% German. Did the French just turn German to please the English for that model? The real French Hawkes Basses look 100% French and nothing like a Panormo at all.

I spoke to one person in the 'field' who shall remain nameless. He mentioned that he made some corrections in his personal book. He also mentioned that some of the pictures were mixed up and a few errors were the fault of the publisher.

Elgar or not, I know of one Italian Bass that was a Landolfi in the '60s from one source, a Testore in the 70s by another and now that it's for sale it's a Ruggeri or Rogeri, one of them.

I heard from more than one source that when Elgar was writing the book, people by invitation would send him pictures and say, "here's my Amati", "here's my d'Salo", "here's my Testore".. and so on. Names were thrown around freely back then. Still today, it's about the same unless you need 3-4 Bass dealers to agree. That is unlikely in most cases I would venture to say.

Martin, a book on Italian Basses would be more attributions than confirmations. The period and province at best would be approximate in most cases but not all. A few might be accurate by jury and a few might be totally wrong. Actual names and dates for an entire book of Basses would more than likely be a book of fiction, based on a wishful true story.

Now, a book on English Bass might be easier to do. First off, most of them are from either London or the north near Manchester with a small percentage spread out around the British Isles. Most of them would date from 1775-1875. Now that's something that looks possible to me.

Also in this supposed English Bass book, it would be interesting to list all of them that have been Italian Basses until recently. That to me is something worth writing about. Here's my Testore made in Scotland almost a century after Testore died.. lol.. More truth in that then one can imagine.

How many Maggini's have we seen claimed that were more than likely either something else or British, mainly British. How many Amati's are claimed when most dealers doubt that any of the Amati family made a single bass combined! And the d'Salo, the greatest of them all along with Maggini where any old looking early Italian bass can be attributed to him for lack of a better name.

Oreste Martini is recorded as making 45 Double Basses in his time of which I have to date the earliest I have seen and have seen one of the latest recently as well. Martini probably made more Basses than Maggini, d'Salo and any of the Amati's combined. Throw in Montagnana while you are at it.

The Brescian Fair in 2007 had a few of Maggini and at least one, Dragoinetti's d'Salo. Also, I believe 2 other d'Salos were sold last year. I would bet that between the fair and the sales, they include the majority of the Double Basses ever made or converted in-to by these two makers. Yet, it seems that so many great players have a famous Bass by one of these or even Amati.

Funny thing,. I spoke to a southern gentleman selling a Violin on-line and we spoke on the phone after I emailed him with my doubts. It got friendly and he looked over my Basses on my website. According to him, this is what he thinks I have;

1)Gilkes=Strad

2)Storioni=Guarnieri del Gesu

3)Mystery English=G.B.? Gagliano (younger brother of Allesandro)

4)19th century Neapolitan=a later Gagliano as well (forger which but at least that Bass is close).

When he said I have the only Strad Bass which is the Gilkes made on the Strad pattern a century later, I offered him a deal to sell my Bass as a Strad. He said it was priceless so no figure was discussed.

I admit this guy was not dealing with a 'full deck' in my mind but the world is big and anyone can call a bass any name they like.

Ok, I have to get back to work now. I am loosing a ton of money selling my Strad as a Gilkes. At least I have another job to go to.. lol
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Old 11-12-2008, 05:14 PM
Martin Sheridan Martin Sheridan is offline
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Default right on

Ken, you are probably right on. Arnold and I were discussing arching in another thread and after I posted my thoughts I reflected on the Italian basses I've seen. To begin with in my early bass making days a lot of the basses I was shown as Italian I now realize were not. A few years ago I looked at some "Italian" basses in one of our orchestras and at least one of them was not Italian. Being "Italian" has been the quickest way to sell an instrument for a couple of hundred years or more. The Rogeri that you and I discussed recently has an original label and I don't think anyone has ever tried to say that it's not, yet I've seen several violins attributed to G.B Rogeri that I can't say bore any resemblance to my eyes as being from the same maker. Maybe the bass was made by an apprentice? Maybe the violins weren't Rogeris? You can look at a good book on the Italian makers and there hundreds if not thousands of them, but isn't it curious that we see the same names coming up over and over again at auctions? What happened to these other makers? One has to suspect that they have become known by other names, and you don't have to look any further than the money motive to discern why.
There are many English made basses that have become Italian and the reason is that they did the best job of immitating Italian work.

For what it's worth. I was told that the Hawkes Panormo models were made in Germany and France. I have seen some with and without the outside linings and I thought the ones without the outside linings were French?
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Old 11-12-2008, 06:04 PM
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Anselm Hauke Anselm Hauke is offline
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well, wrong attributions are not a new problem:
(from g.hart - the violin, it´s famous makers and their imitators, london 1909)




The following extract, taken from the State documents in connection with the Court of Modena, serves to indicate the degree of esteem in which the instruments of Niccolò Amati were held during his lifetime, in comparison with those of his contemporary and pupil, Francesco Ruggieri. Tomaso Antonio Vitali, the famous Violinist, who was the director of the Duke of Modena's Orchestra, addressed his patron to this effect: "Please your most Serene Highness, Tomaso Antonio Vitali, your highness's most humble servant, bought of Francesco Capilupi, through the agency of the Rev. Ignazio Paltrineri, for the price of twelve doublons, a Violin, and paid such price on account of its having the name inside of Niccolò Amati, a maker of great repute in his profession. The petitioner has since found that this Violin has been wrongly named, as underneath the label is the signature of Francesco Ruggieri detto il Pero, a maker of less credit, whose Violins do not scarcely attain the price of three doublons."3 Vitali closes his letter with an appeal to the Duke for assistance to obtain redress.
3 "Luigi F. Valdrighi Nomocheliurgografia," Modena, 1884.


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Old 11-04-2009, 05:07 PM
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Anselm Hauke Anselm Hauke is offline
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Cool elgar devotional objects

elgars repair clamps for sale:
"Here is a rare and totally unique opportunity to buy some antique double bass closing clamps. These used to belong to the famous author of double bass books Raymond Elgar and are in as used condition. There are about 10 in total and range from pretty large to much more petite. All wooden and with wooden threads. Will grace any restorer's workshop or conoisseur of the double bass."
http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/Old-double-bas...item1c0da29476
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Old 10-07-2011, 09:28 AM
Stuart Riley Stuart Riley is offline
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Default Elgar books

I met Elgar in 1987. A friend of mine had written to him in the 80s and bought one of the Busans in the book, on p52/53. Elgar dabbled with repairs, and he felt there was a problem with the varnish, so he stripped it and put some plane clear varnish on the bass, which is why it looks so light in the photos. Real shame, but it plays great. The stories going round the UK are that he was an enthusiast who went round the orchestras looking at basses, taking shots and asking the players what it was, which he published. So its not surprising there are lots of errors. At the time the books were out of print, so I wrote to him asking if he had any, and any basses left, as I had heard that he owned quite a few basses in the books and was selling them off as his pension. I went to see the Baker - it had worm in the blocks and he had taken the back off, chopped off all 4 corners and crudely put in some wood that looke like his dining room table. when I tried it the varnish was still wet and it stuck to my leg!! He was a wily old fox who insisted the full amount was paid before the bass crossed the threashold. I should have bought it, but felt it was too much of a risk. So I asked if he had anothers. The two I remember were a small chamber/solo bass and the Tarr on p178-180. I bought the Tarr in 1989, and there are shot of me playing it at www.stuartriley.info. I have just sold it after 22 years.
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Old 10-07-2011, 11:30 AM
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Quote:
Originally Posted by Stuart Riley View Post
I met Elgar in 1987. A friend of mine had written to him in the 80s and bought one of the Busans in the book, on p52/53. Elgar dabbled with repairs, and he felt there was a problem with the varnish, so he stripped it and put some plane clear varnish on the bass, which is why it looks so light in the photos. Real shame, but it plays great. The stories going round the UK are that he was an enthusiast who went round the orchestras looking at basses, taking shots and asking the players what it was, which he published. So its not surprising there are lots of errors. At the time the books were out of print, so I wrote to him asking if he had any, and any basses left, as I had heard that he owned quite a few basses in the books and was selling them off as his pension. I went to see the Baker - it had worm in the blocks and he had taken the back off, chopped off all 4 corners and crudely put in some wood that looke like his dining room table. when I tried it the varnish was still wet and it stuck to my leg!! He was a wily old fox who insisted the full amount was paid before the bass crossed the threashold. I should have bought it, but felt it was too much of a risk. So I asked if he had anothers. The two I remember were a small chamber/solo bass and the Tarr on p178-180. I bought the Tarr in 1989, and there are shot of me playing it at www.stuartriley.info. I have just sold it after 22 years.
Stuart, this is great information to hear from someone with first hand knowledge about Elgar. That Baker came to the states a few years ago and the worms were in the wood as well from what I had heard. Maybe all dead but the damage was done. The Bass came from a shop in Europe to a shop in NYC to sell and I think it fetched about $145k/dollars. I missed seeing it at the two shops that it passed thru, the sellers and one where it was brought for an opinion which the potential buyer returned after getting the opinion. The shop owner saw all the worm damage and said something like "take it outside. I don't want that wormed bass in the shop" as if the worms were there ready to attack the other basses in the shop. Probably just a precaution. One thing everyone agreed on was the sound. It was a huge, thunderous floor shaking bass. I hope one day to see it in person.
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