Good luck to you, to Arnold, and to your new bass in the competition. I look forward to seeing the photos and to hearing your impressions when you can play your new bass.

Sounds like the bass is coming along; I'm looking forward to seeing it completed.

I missed the initial discussion, but on the subject of the D vs. Eb neck - personally I can go either way; I think that because of the "standardness" and construction aspects the "D" neck is understandable. But - in terms of which one I'd rather play, aside from the fact that I find it annoying switching between the two, I'd rather play the Eb neck and were I to have a bass made (that was to be my primary instrument) I'd want it made that way.

That said, I also have no objection to a longer string length; granted, I'm a fairly large guy with bigger hands and a flexible technique, but I really feel that the shorter string lengths we shoot for today are often a crutch (among several) keeping players from developing technique that would allow them to play a longer length without trouble. Sure, a shorter string length is functional and feels "easier" to play, but I don't think that in terms of tonal precision they stand up and that given the same bass and same player, assuming good technique, there is more potential for a tonally "clear" performance with a longer string length.

There's a reason there is only one row of guys playing bass in the orchestra - not everybody is able or willing to do it - we don't need to compromise the instrument so everyone can play it... ;)

(yes, I know there are other reasons too. :p )

well..
 

Thomas, I would like to inform you that 150 -200 years ago, many basses in England or most of them were under 42" string length originally. My Hart with a replaced neck at an Eb-neck is under 42". A Fendt I recently played is under 42". My Dodd was under 42". Also many Italian basses built on the smaller side are under 41". Just because we see some 44s floating around doesn't mean they were all made that big.

As far as pro orchestra bass sections go, you might find a few 43s in the group but most players I know want 42" or less. On sound, I see no problem as my former Dodd was one of the loudest and deepest sounding basses I've ever played.

That being said, the copy bass will start out with a D-neck heel but with enough room to carve down to almost a full Eb. I will try it first at a D'. The access to the upper register of this bass is so easy (as it is on the original) that the Eb may not be necessary but it's still an option for after the competition. The string length I think will be just under 42".

well..
 

When I first read your post I thought you were just referring to the copy bass but reading it once again I think you are referring to the original which is in the process over being shortened, correct?

I don't know what kind of experience you have playing bass professionally but large basses are tiring to play on and difficult to play in tune as well. This is not about building chops. It's about playing music that was written after these big basses were made.

I can tell you this, give me a dozen or a hundred basses like this and I will shorten every one of them to 42" string length or less. The bass will be easier to play, the sound more focused and the bass itself more desirable to everyone.

I don't know of a single bass in modern times that was lengthened to over 42" but many that were shortened down to it.

Go buy a 44" length bass and try playing in an Orchestra. Let me know how you do.

My post was not really in reference to any particular bass, I just wanted to comment on the discussion of D vs. Eb necks.

Perhaps you can elaborate on the first two points -

How does shortening the string length "focus" the sound of the instrument?

And, how does the shorter string length really make the bass easier to play? The way I see it, the issue is with players using a rigid technique of left hand positions that forces stretching over the lower intervals - the shorter string length reduces the intervals making the stretches easier - but it still is more of a technique issue, no?

??
 

You almost have me confused here. Please, go out and play in an Orchestra for a few years. A community orchestra, for free most likely. Get some real experience with the music. Play all the Rep. and then we can talk. Your comments on playing make no sense to me.

On the bass itself, the shorter the length on a note, the more direct focus it has. Longer = looser in my book.

On the technique comment, I have no idea where you got that concept from. Position playing is very important. Shifting is very important. Intonation is very important. Free hand playing is not very reliable. Playing alone in your house is not the same as playing in a bass section. You need to play in tune, in unison together, in tempo and sound even if possible.

Discuss this with your teacher. If he is a professional orchestra player, he will explain it to you in your next lesson perhaps.

This thread is about the restoration of a nearly 300 year old cornerless bass with a fantastic sound. It was probably made by an Italian Luthier that made Guitar and Lute type instruments as well as Violin family instruments as we see influences of both styles of construction here. The placement of the F-holes shows it was a 3-string gut instrument as suggested as well by the period and the gear box. The shape is graceful and long. The string length is quite long for the bass as it fits a 3/4 bag and has a 5/4 length of vibrating string. This is not something you see on modern instruments. There was no Beethoven or even Mozart being played when this was made. Vivaldi yes, as well as Italian opera and other Chamber and Church music. As a matter of fact, the owner before the last told his son he found it in a Church in Italy. That was before all of us reading this were born. Guitar shaped basses like this were used in the Monasteries back then. The kind of music they played was only a fraction in demand of what is required today. The length back then was not important for the few notes it put out. Perhaps you are in the wrong century and need to go back!..:eek: .. Then you can enjoy a 44.5" string length and tell all the others playing 40" how wimpy they are.:rolleyes: .. Regardless, this one's getting shortened, like it or not.;)

Thomas,

Longer string length also generally creates more tension, at the same pitch, as a shorter string length.

For example, on my (former) 44" bass, Spiro Weichs felt sort of like Mittels would have on a 41 1/2" or 42" bass.

So, the longer scale, in addition to making open-handed playing harder, makes general left hand tension/effort greater, in general.

ok..
 

Getting back on topic here I would like to mention that Arnold sent me a few pics yesterday of the bass after he applied the golden yellow ground. Wow, the flames of the maple are just popping out all over. I would say the figure looks 2-3x stronger now than when the wood was just in the white. The flames of the original back are much broader in width and oxidized about 300 years. Not much we can do about that but this will be a close second if not right up there.

Sorry, I cannot share these pics due to circumstances beyond my control but, I can tell you about it. Arnold was telling me on the phone and I begged him practically to stop teasing me and send me some pictures.. Ok, I have a few pics now. That should hold me for a day of two..;)

Oh, and string length for the 'inspired copy bass' (the un-official description for accuracy) is planned for about 41 3/4" length.

What color finish are you and Arnold planning, once all the finish layers are applied?

??
 

I can't say for sure but not as dark as the original because age and oxidation has contributed to that. Also, since this is a publicly read Forum and the bass is being entered into a competition I would not reveal the color IF I knew it. No one should know who the maker of this bass is until after the judging. I will post pictures before xmas.;)

She will be pretty..:cool:

Will this Bass be entered in the VSA?

shh
 

Can't say. You gotta ask Arnold..;)

Been there, done that, years ago - played the "rep" and a lot of basses too. Sorry if I don't make sense, I admit to having developed an unorthodox approach to technique and instruments both. ;)

Well... sort of. I think it is here that we get into the issue of "string length (mensure)" vs. overall string length of the instrument.

Sorry to further derail the thread.

Ken - want to copy some of these posts over to the current thread on string length modifications? I certainly don't mean to be negative or argumentative on the subject, or to hijack the thread about your new bass!

copy?
 

No, I don't need to copy it. Feel free to copy and post your ideas where applicable. If the subject turns to the side a bit it's ok by me to air out the thoughts on it and then get back to the mainstream topic.

On your 'been there done that' comment about playing in an Orchester I gotta ask you this. You were born in 1982. You have a Shen made in 1997. You were 15 when the bass was made and and you are 28 now. Is the Shen the bass you played in the 'been there done that' statement?

I once asked a retired player who played without a C-extension for 15 years in a Pro Orchestra but had a converted 5er a question about the Storm 6th part. I wanted to know if he played all the low individual 16ths on the 5er or on the 4 an octave up? He replied, 'we never played the 6th!'

So Thomas, how do you approach that part on the 6th?

I know this is off topic but you made the comment about length and if I read you correctly it was a bit condescending to todays players in the 41-42" string length range. If you were referring to beginners and jazz players trying to go shorter than 41" for whatever reason then please say so.

For the record, I subscribe to the 41-42" length for everything I play, buy or modify. Sometimes the bass is just too small or too big or too long or the FFs too low or close together to modify but, I do have these numbers in mind as a goal and for a very good reason.

Back on topic, the Varnish is in the final coatings. The last round of pics Arnold sent me look stunning. In order to keen the strong maple flames showing, the varnish cannot get too dark. The oxidation of the wood on the original is something we cannot buy in a jar and put on a bass so we will just have to wait a few centuries for that..;)

I don't mean to condescend at all - I think that discussion of topics like this can't help but benefit all of us! I admit that I tend to push buttons though - but only in a good way. :D

Sure, I'm not the oldest guy around, and while I do have a fair bit of experience playing in orchestras, I'm not currently a pro orchestra player. The Shen is my current instrument due to circumstance but believe me, I'm not proud of it. ;) It is an appliance at best; a questionable appliance at that (I'm sure that will offend someone)...

Really, my only point is just that people seem to see *string length* (often not knowing what it actually is) as some magic factor to making a bass playable, when the reality is that there are so many small factors that all add up to make a musical instrument.

ok..
 

Back on topic, I visited Arnold yesterday afternoon and got a good look at the bass all varnished and awaiting its final rubout. Arnold marked the fingerboard (unstrung) where the octave G is and the D near the neck heel. Boy is that G easy to reach. With the palm of my hand on the shoulder, the G is right there under my fingers without any reach at all. The D is perfect, just a smudge above the center of my thumb.

All I can say is the bass looks and feels sweet. I have owned more basses than I can count and some of them were fairly new (not counting basses I buy for stock). This however is the first Bass I have ever commissioned to be made from scratch. I was able to select the wood with Arnold in his shop and was involved in the design as well.

The bass was in a stand along side of the back/rib assembly of the original it was copied from.

I will probably have the bass a few weeks before Christmas as it has to go first to the VSA to be judged and then when it returns I will find a day to drive up and get it. That will be my first time playing it as well.

update..
 

I just got back from Arnold's and got to play the new Bass. I actually went up to show the Malvolti labeled bass and get a game plan to clean it up soon as well as pick up my Lombardi roundback that just got a tweak and clean-up as well. Arnold mentioned on the phone that the bass is ready to play so, I did.

I was surprised how deep and smooth it was. It did not sound new. The bass is so accessible with the Storioni shoulders that with my arm/wrist resting on the shoulder, I can play the 2nd octave C on the G in thumb position without actually going to TP.. lol :eek: :D

It was a treat to play. The workmanship is beautiful and all the materials top-notch. It will go soon out to the VSA show for the competition. When it comes back, the C-Extension will be made and fit. Then some final set-up tweaking when we meet on that final day when the bass comes home. This is my first double bass commission. A Grand Slam. Bravo Maestro Arnoldo.

Congratulations to both you and Arnold! It sounds as if another great bass has come into the world...

........ Pictures?

I have some preliminary pics up on my Facebook page. The bass is being delivered to Ken on 12/17, and I'm sure there will be a beautiful layout on the KSB site within hours. I've just finished the C extension and the instrument really likes it.

Arnold's Facebook pics..
 

The Scroll pics. The original and 300 years later, a modified copy;
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...5_740827_n.jpghttp://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._7846955_n.jpg
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...s/scroll_L.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double.../scroll_bk.jpg

Back Button area;
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-...4_212180_n.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...eel_detail.jpg

Rib/profile;
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._1360164_n.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ges/full_R.jpg

The F holes;
http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._4654851_n.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...es/L_Fhole.jpg

These pics were copied by permission from Arnold's facebook page. When the Bass gets here later this month, we will take a full set of pics and post a full page on the website. When the original 'Storioni' (as it was known as) comes out of restoration, I will again make a new page on that bass as well as a side-by-side page of the original and the inspired copy.

and the Top & Back plates..
 

http://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._2005612_n.jpghttp://sphotos.ak.fbcdn.net/hphotos-..._1304783_n.jpg
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...es/body_fr.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...torioni/imageshttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...es/body_bk.jpg

With no two shoulders being exactly identical, we picked one of the Shoulders and use that for all 4 of them, top and back.

Congratulations, to both of you!

A lovely concept, and so beautifully made...

Thank you for sharing these photos.

Neat work, powerful design... and he is making some friends there!

yes..
 

Yes, all who have played the bass, love the feel and sound. A few have commented on how deep it is as well. Like almost an ocatave below to my ears. Nothing harsh or new sounding at all. For me, it's like putting one old bass down and picking up another. With my love for old smooth sounded deep orchestra type basses and owning quite a few of them now and before, the last thing I wanted would have been a bright sounding new bass. The only thing bright about this one is the smiles and open eyes it puts on those that have played and heard it. We had no idea it was going to come out this good but I had to insist on copying the original as close as possible to capture as much of its tone as possible. Luck was on our side I guess..

Beautiful piece of spruce on the top!

top..
 

The Top was finished/varnished with a special 'corduroy' effect to bring out the grain!

Also, it was a nice piece of wood as well..:)

Is today still the day you get the new bass, Ken? I am excited enough, vicariously, that I remembered...

shhh
 

Arnold is on the way as we speak.. First, we will go out for Lunch. Priorities..lol

ok, ok..
 

The Bass is here.
It's amazing.
Made from well aged wood and to a very old design model.
The results were beyond prediction in the tone department.

It will now become my main bass. Being it's so pretty, I may need to use one of the others as a back-up so this one doesn't get scratched or banged up. Maybe I'll use the Hart as a back-up bass. Good choice you think?;)

Now I need a place to hide it..:eek:

Hi Ken.
Congratulations! I've really enjoyed the thread. you are a lucky guy owning such a quality bass.
Cheers Geoff

When do we get to see a whole LOT of pics of this bass ???

The Hart as a "backup" bass?! :D

This new instrument must simply be incredible. Many happy congratulations to both you and Arnold.

the beginning...
 

Thanks guys. Yes, the bass is very special and it is not a design or pattern one would just make from thought. Having the original side by side was the key to success along with Arnold's hands. It was an experimental risk doing it to begin with as it's so different than any other bass as far as the dimensions are. I just had to see if it was possible to copy the pattern and modify it with corners, move the Fs up and out and still get at least a good sounding bass if not something close to the original. What we don't have is the 'exact' wood and species of the original, the age of it and the repairs as well as the centuries or settlement of the sum of its experiences.

That was a long sentence.. lol..

My point is that I was willing to take a chance and commission something that I thought would work. Arnold put his own work experience into it as well as far as the archings and graduations go so it IS a Schnitzer Bass but made off of a pattern he's never tried.

Now that it's here, I just have to play it and get over the anticipation from the building of it. Time to do some serious practicing now that I have no excuses at all.:D:eek:

Wow! That is great to hear Ken. The bass looks gorgeous. I'd love to hear it one day. It will be nice to hear your thoughts when the original is complete comparing both basses. When do you anticipate the restoration will be done?

when?
 

You have to ask Arnold. It's hard to say. The Top is done and on the Ribs but the Ribs are not started yet. The Back is in progress and going smooth. The Scroll is repaired and grafted into a its new Neck but will go in last. I would guess way before Summer 2011.

ok..
 

I took the new bass out for a rehearsal today. It plays easy but it feels new. Duh..:confused::p

I experimented playing some things in higher positions on lower strings like up most of the first octave of the E string and threw in some extension notes/8VL just to see how the bass responded.

It bows easy on all strings. Playing in an Orchestra is different than practicing at home. I cannot stress enough about practicing to know your bass as I had some intonation problems tonight. I played sharp and flat up and down the bass (only on occasion) as I was just 'going for it' and not worrying about where the notes were just to see how well the bass fit ME right out of the gate.

I think sticking with just ONE bass for now (harder for me than sticking to a diet.. lol) would be a good plan to play better in tune.

The bass seemed to be fairly loud, deep and smooth but had punch as well. I think the volume and presence brought out the intonation partly as well as adjusting to the height and feel of the overall bass. When playing it alone (no Orchestra) I can concentrate and play much better in tune. Once you throw new music in front of me, my attention is on the music and the bass needs to automatic under my fingers.

I remember playing the Riccardi bass and feeling how comfortable it was in my hands and against my body. Playing with the exact same Stool tonight I felt that same or rather similar comfort. The Riccardi was over a 44" string length and this one is under 42". Moving up the neck I was usually sharp possibly because of my muscle memory on the original needing more stretch to reach the notes. I am sure that in time I will get used to the modified length of this Copy bass as well as the original once it comes out of restoration at a similar length to what this one is now.

Good to hear that I am not alone. My old bass had a 44" string length. Now that I am playing on something with a 41 5/8" string length, I have had to spend a bunch of time doing double stops and shifting exercises to get my intonation back to an acceptable place.

It does take some time to retrain the muscles, but it seems to be improving. I still notice my inaccuracy most around the octave transition area, moving in thumb position...

What a beautiful bass, you have; sounds as if it will be worth the (nearly) monogamous relationship. Congratulations, again...

well..
 

Thanks.. Normally I play basses that are from 41-42" and have been doing so all along. The Riccardi was the only long one I had but being that this is almost the same feel to my body, my hands seem to go places they are not invited.. lol... Time to re-train.. :eek:

Ken, have you switched teams? :D