ok..
 

Jeff, your pics didn't load.

On mine that I mentioned, the page is up now. I am not sure of the age exactly and also not sure if the Scroll is a later period as it doesn't match to my eye.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...front-full.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...right-full.jpghttp://www.kensmithbasses.com/double.../back-full.jpg

Here's the Scroll that I'm not so sure about;
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...roll-right.jpg
and with an interesting 'Lyra' Button as well;
http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...oll-button.jpg

Mittenwald photos
 

OK...let's see if this works. When the basses a placed back to back, the difference in model size is clear. There are subtle differences in the varnish/color. To my eye, the ffs are the same or very similar. Even the bracing on the inside is the same (although the bass on the right the original two lower braces have been replaced with a single brace, there are marks where they 'used' to be). AND there is evidence in both basses that the cross braces have been 'let into' the inside linings.

pair..
 

Nice pair of basses. How would you compare them in sound. Both of them seem to have Mittenwald Gears. One from the early 19th century as I have seen on several basses, one was a Seitz and the other I have seen on later turn of the century (19-20th) on a Neuner-Hornsteiner bass.

Mittenwald Bass
 

Hi Ken,

I was curious about your Mittenwald bass. It has a bevel near the top of the back. Most Mittenwalds have a slopped back towards the neck block. How about the inside braces, are they 'let into' the linings? How many braces are in the back. Nice bass. Do have ideas about a possible maker? (Seitz, Venner, N & H? etc.)

I'll post a photo of the scrolls of the pair of Mittenwalds. They do not have the same type of gears nor are the scrolls similar in shape or size.

style and age..
 

Well, I showed the pics to Arnold and he agrees with me all the way on this. Not all Mittenwald Basses are non-angled backs. I know there is something about this on another website discussing the difference between Neuner and Tarr but I don't see this as anything but German. The break on this is just at 2". Most English basses I have seen average 2.5-3" in break and from the middle or upper part of the bout. This one starts just below the middle making is less of an angle in the bend.

I doubt the Scroll is as old as the Bass and is a northern Scroll as well to me. Maybe Markneukirchen 100-120 years old. I have seen others like it and the gears a well. The Back shows signs of a Neck/Heel break in the past. This Scroll as well was once pinned through the button and then maybe a new neck grafted after that failed. The Bass sounds great and I can only assume it was heavily used because of its sound. It is one of the best German Basses I have ever played.

On the Linings, the blocks at the bottom bout are cut and the lining butted up against the notch, the same on both sides. The middle bout linings are flush, not inlaid as are the upper linings into the upper blocks. Only the lower back side bottom block are notched. One side it goes in and one was trimmed back.

There is a center crossbar 3" in width, a lower crossbar shaped like a bassbar, a middle crossbar shaped like a bassbar and an upper one covering the angle-break that is a flatter bar but rounded softly about 2" wide.

There are many repairs inside the back as you can see the numerous splits in the Birdseye. I am just now dropping some glue on a lower crack inside that has no visible repair to it. When the bass goes this Summer to Jeff Bollbach, I will have him put some linen over it and go over the whole bass. It looks like the repairs are several years old and may need a touch of fresh glue in a few spots. I don't think the bass needs to come apart at this time.

Jeff, if you hadn't asked me to look inside at the back construction I would have not seen that faint un-repaired crack. Thanks..;)

The shoulders of this Bass slope a bit more than some other Mittenwalds but then again, there were several shops and makers in the 19th century making basses and/or producing parts for them. The red varnish over the yellow under it is also common with Mittenwald basses.

Venner? Never heard that name. did you mean Neuner or Baader?

The most famous names and families I know of that have produced basses are first the Klotz family of makers, the Neuners, the Hornsteiners, Seitz (also a supplier of Basses), the firm of Neuner-Hornsteiner and the J.A. Baader firm to name the most important ones I can think of. There is some overlapping of these names in their work periods and some marriages between them as well. Mittenwald was a huge center for Violin family instruments and some of what I have seen are shop-grade type instruments. Not necessarily factory made in a modern sense but old style bench factory/shop making and even cottage industry building going back to before 1700 when Mathias Klotz (Kloz) returned to Mittenwald and became the founder of that School of making.

What is my bass exactly and who made it when? Hey, tell me and we'll both know..:)

It sounds old and sweet. That's enough for me for now..

More Mittenwald
 

Thanks Ken,

Very interesting. I heard the name Venner from an English bass luthier. He was helping me id my Mittenwald bass and said he had one coming into his shop that was very similar to mine made by Venner. On my bass, (the one with the plates on the scroll) there is very clear evidence that some of the inner bracing has been replaced. It is very obvious that someone along the way filled the spaces where the braces used to fit into the linings. I think the four braces. along with the center brace have been replaced. (http://www.flickr.com/photos/4019654...7620999354851/) Photos I've seen in the Elgar book show a Neuner and Hornsteiner bass where the braces were 'let into' the linings - including the center brace. On my bass, you can see where the center brace used to fit under neath the corner blocks. The aforementioned English luthier sent me a photo of the inside of a N & H bass where it was clear that all the inside bracing was fit into the inside linings...My bass is so close to shape, size, etc. (even having the same small-cogged gears) that I'm fairly sure mine is from the same maker - I know that N & H put the label on the center brace and since mine has been replaced, it makes sense that may a reason that here is no label in my bass.

In terms of sound between the two, both are very deep and resonant; organ like if you will. My bass is a little more deep while the other bass is a little more sweet.

ok..
 

The Bass with the smaller Scroll looks like N&H. The Pics inside the bass looks Mittenwald. The Button on the Pegbox in the 2nd 'flicker' pic looks N&H as well. If that helps at all..

http://www.worldofbasses.de/Instrume...croll-back.jpghttp://www.worldofbasses.de/Instrume...-side-left.jpghttp://www.worldofbasses.de/Instrume...uner-label.jpg

From http://www.worldofbasses.de/Instrume...umente_04.html

But sloped shoulders and wide flat linings.

Your Bass with the longer larger Scroll looks much older than the other bass by at least half a century. Just a guess.

Another One
 

Hello Ken,

I've recently come across this instrument. The string length is very long (over 44 - notice the false nut.) The neck joint sits on top of the body. Inside there are five braces, one in the middle (for the sound post) about 3" or so, two for the upper and two for the lower. All the braces are let into the linings. The front is perfled and the back is not. Black strip running down the back. There is an extra turn in the vollute (sp?) Any thoughts? Perhaps this may be a N & H or Mittenwald bass?

false Nut
 

Oops, forgot to post the pic of the false nut

nice..
 

I would say N&H School at the least. Also, J.A. Baader was working around the same period but the scroll button is similar to the N-H models.

I often wonder with the old talk of cottage industry along with big factories and some bass specialists if there was much subcontracting going on between Firms or actual makers. The Export business was booming from what I have read so the possibility exists I think. Must be a monster sound. Can you post all of the measurements maybe?

My Mittenwalder Bass is starting to puzzle me though. It has the angle break rather then the gentle sloped back, no center back strip, only 4 cross bars in total with one in the center/post position and one across the angle break, the lower bout wide like a full sized bass (28"), the middle bout (14.75") and upper bout (21") like a full 3/4 with a string length of a full 3/4 bass (41.75"). Most of these Mittenwald basses I have seen were uniform in sizes, widths and string lengths, not a hybrid like this one. Mainly I think it's the 28" bottom that puzzles me for its general size. That to me is more like the Northern English Basses of the Tarr school. Perhaps they offered an 'English model' back then in the mid 19th century to compete with the English! Possibly?
According to at least two sources, Mittenwald was making some basses for Tarr, possibly Neuner. Although my Bass is not English, it is more of an English model in design than it is the typical Mittenwald style but sounds like an old German Bass. The Top arch looks Stainerish but the shoulder slope seems almost like a solo bass as compared so some of the other monster Mittenwalders I have seen. Maybe Solo/Orchestra was the model they had in mind. What do you think?

False Nut..
 

Nice. I made one as well to correct the D-heel and shorten the string length on this Italian bass.

http://www.kensmithbasses.com/double...ges/scr_fr.jpg

There are a few ways to do this but in the end, the results are almost the same.

Uneven dimensions
 

You've got me thinking...your original intention of this thread was to find the big old German that folks like Prescott or JB Allen used as a model type for their Yankee instruments. In looking at your Mittenwald bass, the size ratio between the smaller upper bouts and the oversized lower ones looks quite a bit like those used by Prescott. Do you see any similarities or am I way off base here. How does this bass sound? Big and thunderous? Sweet? Clear?
Deep? A couple of things are confusing: the angle break in the back and the golden-ish varnish are not typical of the other Mittenwald basses on this thread. How did you come to decide it was from Mittenwald? Also, in your last response, you cited the bass I posted as perhaps H&H. What is H&H. Did you mean Neuner and Hornsteiner (N&H), or is this a different firm/maker?

I have more photos of yet another bass I've come across which will follow in a day or two.

H&H?
 

Oops.. that was a typo. N&H. They letters are just above one another and was typing too fast, for me that is.. lol

On my Bass, the Scroll is NOT original to that bass. I see it as a later Markneukirchen style end of 19th, early 20th century, gears and all.

The bass itself is red over gold. It came in as a Mittenwald and that's what I think it is. Not necessarily a typical factory model but something more custom. Almost like a copy of a Tarr or Northern English bass.

This to me is nothing at all like a Prescott in its pattern at least not to my eye and nothing like the Yankee sound either. Sounds like good German. Punchy notes with short decay, almost no after ringing inside the bass and even sounding all over. If anything, I would reiterate an English copy in its overall style. The Basses with angle breaks from East Germany thru Prague and even Vienna are diffefent in many ways. The Northerm English copied in part the Germans and here it looks like that flavor. I have also seen another Birdseye maple Mittenwald bass not long ago but that one was much bigger and more typical German all around but with the upper angle break as well. I have heard that they were made both ways in Germany, with and without that angle.

Sound wise I have to say it's still coming. The Bass hasn't seen a Bow in years and it also needs some set-up work and a bit of gluing. Jeff Bollbach will get this when I'm done with my Jobs in mid Summer and make an Extension for it as well. I have the Eurosonics on it right now as that was the only regular 4-string set I had that was 'new' but is not my choice for this bass. It was just something to hear it with. I have a concert Saturday and two jazz tunes as well with a Symphony and I got the jazz part. Last week at the first full rehearsal the bass sounded great thru the amp as well as in the section with the bow. For sound and tone I would say medium power in the mids, sweet on top and shaking the floor a bit on the bottom. It needs a good endpin as well which I know will help the sound. Also, the soundpost felt a bit on the short side and I placed it a bit closer to the F-hole than I normally would to make it fit. I am sure it will sound much better after Jeff is done with it. Regardless, I like the bass as it is and enjoy playing it every chance I get. The bass 'feels' very old and mature as well. It just needs some TLC and some playing. This I can guarantee it will get!

Yet Another One
 

Here's yet another bass that may fit into the 'big bass' category. The shape is typical, the golden color reminds me of a Seitz bass I posted earlier (on page 1 of this thread). The machines on this bass are just like the one's on my big bass (and if you look close on the photo of the Seitz bass, it has the same machines as well).

I do agree that your Mittenwald bass is reminiscent of Tarr bass. In terms of my comment about your bass when compared to Yankee basses, I was only referring to the ratio between large lower bouts and the relatively smaller upper bouts I've seen on some Prescott basses.

Prescott bouts..
 

The upper bouts of Prescott Basses are usually wide and long. Some of them were cut down as mine surely was, upper and middle. It must have been way too big because after the Cut, it was still a 4/4 bass. Maybe it was a 5/4 before?

Then I looked at Eugene Wrights bass that looks all original and came to the conclusion that his upper bouts were very similar to my 'cut' upper bouts. Prescott must have changed the 4/4 model Busetto and Gamba basses to have smaller upper's for the players buying them. That I think is 'American' and not German as it was done to make it playable and not a copy. The only Copy part is copying his own cutting down which we can consider a learning curve.

Show me a single Prescott that looks like the proportions of my German bass (I think it's German) and I will reverse my opinion.

It is also written somewhere that Prescott copied an old English Viol for his Scroll idea and length. That is a huge pegbox for what only had 3 strings originally!

More please...:)

OK...
 

Thanks Ken,

I am not an expert and I defer to your experience. I've seen a few Prescotts only so my vantage point is limited. Thanks for keeping me honest. I appreciate this forum where so much can be learned.

Cool bass Jeff...I have it's little sister here!

Ken, these brass plates are very unique (and original to the bass...so useful in identification)...and seeing as Jeff has two pictured, I have one, you have seen one...it's a shame we can't put a finger on who made these!

gears?
 

I have seen versions of those on some English Basses and some German as well from Mittenwald. I am sure they were for sale just like the Baker gears were as well as the Mirecourt gears sold to 'Hawkes & Son' that they put on all of their German imports.

Eric, can you show the whole bass maybe and not just little pieces of it?

Also, that bass you have called a Gemunder on your site now is a German bass and possibly Mittenwald. Most of the Gemunder basses if not all of them from NY were German Imports. I have a copy of their old catalog page from 1892 in which is titled "Imported German Basses". The brothers who started in Mass. (senior) were out of the making by then and the sons/cousins of both parents running the firm and importing. Of course that would put that bass after 1892 when they first started the firm. I remember this bass when Gary first emailed me the pics of it.

On the brass plates, any maker or shop could have fitted them. I have seen old basses with these gears and I think most of them were on plates. Some looked original and some not as far as the plates under the gears go.

Mittenwalder..
 

I picked up my old Mittenwalder about a month ago from Jeff Bollbach with its new chromatic C-Extension. He also tightened up a few other things around the bass and the sound is quite impressive. The E string shakes the floor and it's not a huge bass, just a large 3/4 or small 7/8. I think the Birdseye maple back and ribs has something to do with the low end being so deep and powerful.

The shoulders and back design are quite a comfortable combination to get around as well.

I can only imagine now why we don't see more of these basses over here in America. The Europeans are holding on to them! Why? Because they work!!

Mittenwalder = Ludwig Neuner?
 

Ok, follow me here on this. I looked thru the ranks of the known 19th century makers of Mittenwald to identify the possible maker/shop of my Bass. Looking at dates alone, the mostly likely person was Ludwig Neuner or his firm that he took over in 1867, Neuner-Hornsteiner. These were my thoughts about a year ago.

There is little doubt that this is a Mittenwald production but the design is quite different from the average domestic product from this area.

I recently had my Georges Mougenot Bass restored and while comparing the FFs of both Basses side by side I noticed they were almost exactly the same. The Mittenwald being slightly longer but the all the curves as well as the eyes and tabs looked to be from the same pattern. Mougenot having worked with N.F. Vuillaume had access to the Vuillaume patterns as N.F. worked with and made Basses for his brother J.B. Vuillaume before moving to Brussels. This explains the Vuillaume FFs on the Mougenot. Ludwig Neuner, although trained by his father originally, had gone to Paris and worked for 6-7 years with Vuillaume. He also traveled to London briefly as well. This Bass has the Vuillaume FFs and an English Gamba style outline and Back bend. It is for these reasons that I make this attribution, as Ludwig Neuner is the only German of that period that worked and traveled to both France and England. The Bass is totally a Mittenwald production but shows also the Vuillaume FFs with the English Gamba pattern which is a modified German model so it's a full circle. The English copied the Germans and then the Germans copied the English with some French added which was taken from the Italians to begin with!

Reading more on Ludwig Neuner is also mention of having worked briefly in Vienna with the celebrated maker Gabriel Lembock. Ludwig Streicher played a Bass by Lembock. Vieneese Basses are well known for their friendly sloped shoulders over modest width bouts, unlike the slender Pear shaped Basses made in France and Germany of the late 19th century but rather fairly full dimensioned Basses with politely sloped shoulders.

So, putting the period of the Bass at about 1860 or so, Mittenwald in make, English style Back bend and lower Bout width, Vienna style upper Bout slope and Vuillaume pattern Strad model FFs, who is the most likely suspect? ... Ludwig Neuner!

"Attributed to" is an opinion rather than a proven fact, but I did my research and these are the results.