"Cornerless Italian & Spanish Basses"

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Only crappy pics to compare with, but FWIW I think the outline, ff placement and neck block of the bass shown above are very similar to the cornerless bass on page 116 of Elgar's book.

Yes, similar not so curvy outline as with my bass as well as others I have seen that we think are Italian but who knows. I was informed some time ago that the bass on page 116 is NOT a Storioni but that's what it's called in that book.

The basses with less curve have more long continuous grains of wood in the top and back plates having wider center bouts which contributes to the sound.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

... more long continuous grains of wood in the top and back plates having wider center bouts which contributes to the sound.

Contributes in a positive way or a negative way?

I read that a lot but I don't get what the length of the wood fibres/grains has to do with the price of eggs.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Contributes in a positive way or a negative way?

I read that a lot but I don't get what the length of the wood fibres/grains has to do with the price of eggs.

Longer fibers uninterrupted by bout curves and blocks produces a deeper sound. The new copy bass proved that as it's the deepest plush sounding bass that Arnold has produced from similar woods.

Eggs? Price depends on where you shop..

One more think on sound. This bass before restoration had a similar sound to the attributed Maggini (now attributed d'Salo) that Tom Martin has beed trying to sell for some 300 GBP but will go to auction soon at a 150-200 GBP estimated return. Also, the Seraphin attributed bass (formerly attributed to Busan) that was traded to the Minnesota Orchestra a few years back for the Maggini?/dSalo? bass also had a similar sound.

The other two basses mentioned above are Large Violin outlined basses close to or at a 4/4 measurement depending on who you ask. My Cornerless bass although a 44+" string length then, fit in a 3/4 bag and has medium depth ribs. Still, it put out sound as deep, thick and loud as the others.

So, in this case, design beats size with no loss or sound.

Unless you play these basses, it's very hard to understand what I am saying as I myself thought I understood it until I played all 3 of these basses within the same year or so. It's a live and learn kinda thing in my opinion. Until you taste it, you don't know what I am describing. The same with sound and feel. My 2 cents.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Longer fibers uninterrupted by bout curves and blocks produces a deeper sound.

Thanks for your 2c and I respect your experience with many fine basses, but I still don't see how one can make a generalisation like that. Or perhaps I'm not getting an important detail?

By that simple logic, the wider the FFs are apart, the deeper the sound, because there are more long fibres running the length of the bass. Simple as that. But it's not that simple is it? Your cornerless has ffs quite close together. So WHERE are the long fibres? At the edges? Nope, because they are "cut" by the arching at the C bouts outside the FFs. In the centre? Perhaps, up to the edges of the FFs and along the flat part of the long arch before it drops at each end. But then, a bass with more widely spaced ffs would be deeper. But you know that is not always the case, is it?

Or maybe are you talking about RIB fibres? A cornerless has way long interrupted rib fibres, yes. But i don't think this is what you mean.

Or maybe the fibres above the lower eye of the ffs? Yes, with wider centre bout there is more uninterrupted wood above the outside of the FFs, relatively speaking, but the fibres themselves are probably no longer as they have been cut by the arch carving.

The only way to get longer fibres is to BEND the plates a la Bill Fulton. But we don't see that very often.

So, I think that when it comes to doubles basses, one generalises at one's peril!

[Matthew Tucker]

Well, I just thought, a flat BACK plate with wider C bouts would have longer fibres, yes. And you did say this. So perhaps THIS is where your theory is based. But not IMO on the top plate, or a carved back. It's too curvy to have many continuous fibres.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Well, I just thought, a flat BACK plate with wider C bouts would have longer fibres, yes. And you did say this. So perhaps THIS is where your theory is based. But not IMO on the top plate, or a carved back. It's too curvy to have many continuous fibres.

I don't know. It's getting confusing. The Cornerless has a sound to die for and the Copy will get there in time and IT has corners with a round back. The only close copy part is the Scroll and the Top with the exception of the corners.

So, I will go to sleep tonight not worrying about this theory or science at all. Why, I have the bass to play on and for whatever reasons (if none that I've mentioned), it's one of the best sounding basses money can buy.

[Ken Smith]

On the Spanish family Guillami of 2 or 3 generations my C.Stainer book (over 100 years old dated 1/11/95 on the back) was a reference; "GUILLAMI, Spanish family of Violin-makers, about 1680-1780." This reference by date includes J.B. , the eldest listed maker also listed by Henley.

Just now I found a link on line listing Italian makers and found the exact same quote, obviously copied from C.Stainer.