Spirocore Red's, Orchestral ??

[Anselm Hauke]

well, i am not very active in symphony orchestras these days.
but i remember a majority of flexocore players.

[Scott Pope]

The T-I downloadable pdf chart has been around a long time. It is useful, but limited. Tension specs are like a bird watcher's nature book. It will give you general descriptions and get you to the right area to try to see what you're looking for, but won't give you the final answer. A tension guide is not like an engineering manual where you consult the specifications desired to make a decision about structure. The tension specs will say nothing about tone, arco and pizz characteristics, that always subjective "feel," and so on. Finally, the speaking length measurements are necessary to see if a string will actually fit, especially for the E string: if the string is too long, especially for the E string (and B string if a 5), if too much speaking length is around the tuning post, it can affect the integrity of the string. (Mini rant: that's why I don't see the point of "traditional" tuning peg placement. Something like Upton does, reversing the stagger, is much more logical from a string silk leader perspective.)

One more limitation: you can't directly compare the tension specs for those strings listed as suitable for 110 cm mensure (T-I's version of "4/4") and those listed as suitable for 106 cm mensure (T-I's version of "3/4"). Tension varies as to the square of the difference in mensure, so to find out what the "real" tension of an S42 string when strung on a 106 cm mensure bass instead of a 110 cm mensure bass, some math has to be done. I did the math. My chart to directly compare the sets is over on TalkBass. Here is the raw data; this is the best I can do to get it into a nice chart with columns on this forum for ease of reading:

                           G    D    A    E   Total
S42 4/4 Light             55.3 59.3 61.4 63.4 239.4
S42 4/4 Medium            61.4 65.5 69.6 69.6 266.1
S42 4/4 Heavy             73.7 73.7 75.8 77.8 301.0
4/4 Solo @ 3/4 Orch       50.3 55.3 55.3 55.3 216.2
3/4 Solo @ 3/4 Orch       56.0 57.8 57.8 57.8 229.4
3885 3/4 Light            60.6 61.7 63.9 66.1 252.3
3885 3/4 Medium           67.2 68.3 70.5 72.8 278.8

When I have time, I'll see if I can take the email chart for silk and speaking lengths and try to do the same thing for here.

[Ken Smith]

The Subject is Sprio REDS, the Mediums only. The size of your bass will determine which set you get, the S42s or the 3885s, All the other models and gauges are irrelevant at the moment as far as my question goes.

S42 4/4 Medium 61.4 65.5 69.6 69.6 = 266.1

3885 3/4 Medium 67.2 68.3 70.5 72.8 = 278.8

What do these numbers mean under my fingers and on my Neck or Bow? The 4/4 set is lower then the 3/4 set? When I ordered a normal set they sent me the 3885s according to my invoice. But, when I ordered a C ext. string for that same set, it was a C S44.

So, regardless of which length you need, the Red's are the Red's because you can't use a string too long or short for your bass.

As far as Tuning Peg placement goes, the reverse placement idea came from the French, back in the 19th century. The New Standards from Arnold and Wil come with reverse gears as well and have so for as long as I have known those basses. Many early-mid 20th century German basses from both Meyer and Pollmann have reverse tuners as well as 2 on the bass side of the 5ers. They too have realized the need for more after length on thicker strings. But, it is not so easy sometimes with reverse tuners to put a low C-extension on and use the top gear. In this case, the lower gear normal E post would be the longer after length for the E/C string.

The best way I have found for the Low E with standard placement of the gears is to put the E on the upper Gear like it would be if you had a C extension. This way, when switching back between a regular 4 and a bass with Ext., the E and A are on the same posts. On my 5er, I have 3 gears on the bass side so I put the A lowest, E middle and B the upper most peg, usually for the A. So in this case, the B switched with the A giving way to the larger string to be the longest after length. Ok, END of off topic!..

So, who here has experience with Orchestral Bowing using Spiro Reds, Medium gauge, Red at both ends?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

As far as Tuning Peg placement goes, the reverse placement idea came from the French, back in the 19th century. The New Standards from Arnold and Wil come with reverse gears as well and have so for as long as I have known those basses. Many early-mid 20th century German basses from both Meyer and Pollmann have reverse tuners as well as 2 on the bass side of the 5ers.

Actually, Ken, I think the G-low placement is a holdover from converted 3 stringers. Most of them had the two upper strings on the treble side of the pegbox, and the single string on the bass side. Then, when converting to 4 strings, many luthiers just filled the peg hole on the low side and drilled two holes there. That leaves the G string peg as the lowest in the pegbox. I've seen this on several converted basses. Most makers of 4 string basses keep the E string as the lowest, and conversions done early on often used plates, which were oriented that way as well.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

Actually, Ken, I think the G-low placement is a holdover from converted 3 stringers. Most of them had the two upper strings on the treble side of the pegbox, and the single string on the bass side. Then, when converting to 4 strings, many luthiers just filled the peg hole on the low side and drilled two holes there. That leaves the G string peg as the lowest in the pegbox. I've seen this on several converted basses. Most makers of 4 string basses keep the E string as the lowest, and conversions done early on often used plates, which were oriented that way as well.

Ok, but I have seen it on French basses that started as 4s, no? Not to mention that all the Meyer and Pollmann's were 4s as well, right?

But besides that and BACK on Topic, your thoughts, opinions, observations or experiences with Spiro reds for Orchestral Bowing?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

I think on a dark sounding bass there is nothing louder or more defined-sounding. But you better have great bow technique, a terrific bow, and a gob of sticky rosin.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

I think on a dark sounding bass there is nothing louder or more defined-sounding. But you better have great bow technique, a terrific bow, and a gob of sticky rosin.

Ok, the Hart, my Lipkins, Bryant or Fetique, sticky rosin of sorts and a bow arm that almost never tires..

I used them decades ago on my old Italian but I don't know if they will work on the Hart.

I did not like Evah weichs, Velvets or the new Flex Dlx on the Hart of the ones I remember I tried and took off almost as fast or faster than they went on. On my Lamy, I have 3 Evah weichs and a Spiro E. The E is easier to bow than the Evahs and darker sounding as well as more focused and powerful. Maybe?

[Bin Hire]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

I think on a dark sounding bass there is nothing louder or more defined-sounding. But you better have great bow technique, a terrific bow, and a gob of sticky rosin.

Sorry Arnold, I really respect your great experience but, I have bowed spiro reds and they didn't seem particularly hard to bow. Mind you, I must be honest and say that I have never had a set on my own bass. Maybe it is time to try them?

[Richard Prowse]

Sorry Ken, I know this is a little off topic, but...
if I am tossing up between Kaplans and Spiro Reds - I need a good bowing string that also has a reasonable pizz sound (I don't want a spongy pizz). You've used Kaplans; should I, in your opinion, go for reds or Kaplans?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Richard Prowse

Sorry Ken, I know this is a little off topic, but...
if I am tossing up between Kaplans and Spiro Reds - I need a good bowing string that also has a reasonable pizz sound (I don't want a spongy pizz). You've used Kaplans; should I, in your opinion, go for reds or Kaplans?

I think it depends on your bass. The two basses I tried the Kaplans on are old deep sounding basses, the Hart and the Marconcini school bass. I have never tried Spiro reds on either of those basses.

I will say this thought. Today, I put a set of Spiro Solos (red/yellow) on the Marconcini. I bought them a year ago or so and just never had the chance to use them on anything. Getting back on this 'Reds' idea, I thought it would be interesting to try the Solos on a bass that I have fresh Kaplans on to compare them in preparation for trying the Reds on the Hart.

So, between the Kaplans and the Solo Spiros on the Marconcini, the Kaplans are deeper sounding but in the distance, the Spiro Yellows are louder and sweeter sounding, on THAT Bass. The G string on the solos is much thinner in diameter. The other 3 strings are close or nearly identical in size. The tension and type of sound is totally different.

[Sam Sherry]

That chart is cool for sure. I love the Deutsche ad-man's copy:

"Less inertia, longer period of musical vibration."
Your average bassist would say, "Fast voice, unparalleled sustain."

"Equally effective when playing arco or pizzicato."
As opposed to what? There are a paucity of other choices beyond "arco or pizzicato" and I shudder to think of Ken's Hart suffering from most of them!

In any event, meandering back toward the topic at hand: Ken, I'm sure you won't forget that if you're headed toward orchestral work on Spiros there's no particular reason to install a new set!

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

That chart is cool for sure. I love the Deutsche ad-man's copy:

"Less inertia, longer period of musical vibration."
Your average bassist would say, "Fast voice, unparalleled sustain."

"Equally effective when playing arco or pizzicato."
As opposed to what? There are a paucity of other choices beyond "arco or pizzicato" and I shudder to think of Ken's Hart suffering from most of them!

In any event, meandering back toward the topic at hand: Ken, I'm sure you won't forget that if you're headed toward orchestral work on Spiros there's no particular reason to install a new set!

Well yes but first off, I need a set with no internal damage completely healthy within the windings and second, a set with an Extension E/C string. Third, it is only June now and I wont have a concert till about October, about four months from now.

So, if I put on a brand new set, I have time to break them in.

As far as bright strings so, I tried a set of Solo Orig. Flatchromes on my Storioni one night. Bright but good sounding. Also, yesterday as a pre-test I put some 'brand new' Solo Spiros (red/yellow) on the Marconcini school bass and they are nice as well. Bright they are but I didn't run away from them.

I remember ken raising an eyebrow to me saying I enjoyed spirocore reds for arco playing a while back haha. I've been using a set of belcantos per recommendation from ken (which I love) for the past six months. I think kens description of the spiros being edgier & belcantos being smoother is spot on. Sometimes I feel like these 2 sets would be suited for different composers work rather than a jack of all trades set. I miss my spiros sometimes (which I put on a Romanian flatback I rebuilt & sold to a jazz player) for getting a nice beefy forte on Beethoven pieces. I use black hair & med oak rosin always on both sets by the way.

[Eric Hochberg]

Speaking with my luthier today, who works on many of the basses in the Chicago Symphony, I was told that the strings of choice for many years in the orchestra were EA Spiro Red and DG Flexocores. This is what Joe Guastafeste preferred and the other bassists followed suit.