Spirocore Red's, Orchestral ??

[Ken Smith]

The Subject is Sprio REDS, the Mediums only. The size of your bass will determine which set you get, the S42s or the 3885s, All the other models and gauges are irrelevant at the moment as far as my question goes.

S42 4/4 Medium 61.4 65.5 69.6 69.6 = 266.1

3885 3/4 Medium 67.2 68.3 70.5 72.8 = 278.8

What do these numbers mean under my fingers and on my Neck or Bow? The 4/4 set is lower then the 3/4 set? When I ordered a normal set they sent me the 3885s according to my invoice. But, when I ordered a C ext. string for that same set, it was a C S44.

So, regardless of which length you need, the Red's are the Red's because you can't use a string too long or short for your bass.

As far as Tuning Peg placement goes, the reverse placement idea came from the French, back in the 19th century. The New Standards from Arnold and Wil come with reverse gears as well and have so for as long as I have known those basses. Many early-mid 20th century German basses from both Meyer and Pollmann have reverse tuners as well as 2 on the bass side of the 5ers. They too have realized the need for more after length on thicker strings. But, it is not so easy sometimes with reverse tuners to put a low C-extension on and use the top gear. In this case, the lower gear normal E post would be the longer after length for the E/C string.

The best way I have found for the Low E with standard placement of the gears is to put the E on the upper Gear like it would be if you had a C extension. This way, when switching back between a regular 4 and a bass with Ext., the E and A are on the same posts. On my 5er, I have 3 gears on the bass side so I put the A lowest, E middle and B the upper most peg, usually for the A. So in this case, the B switched with the A giving way to the larger string to be the longest after length. Ok, END of off topic!..

So, who here has experience with Orchestral Bowing using Spiro Reds, Medium gauge, Red at both ends?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

As far as Tuning Peg placement goes, the reverse placement idea came from the French, back in the 19th century. The New Standards from Arnold and Wil come with reverse gears as well and have so for as long as I have known those basses. Many early-mid 20th century German basses from both Meyer and Pollmann have reverse tuners as well as 2 on the bass side of the 5ers.

Actually, Ken, I think the G-low placement is a holdover from converted 3 stringers. Most of them had the two upper strings on the treble side of the pegbox, and the single string on the bass side. Then, when converting to 4 strings, many luthiers just filled the peg hole on the low side and drilled two holes there. That leaves the G string peg as the lowest in the pegbox. I've seen this on several converted basses. Most makers of 4 string basses keep the E string as the lowest, and conversions done early on often used plates, which were oriented that way as well.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

Actually, Ken, I think the G-low placement is a holdover from converted 3 stringers. Most of them had the two upper strings on the treble side of the pegbox, and the single string on the bass side. Then, when converting to 4 strings, many luthiers just filled the peg hole on the low side and drilled two holes there. That leaves the G string peg as the lowest in the pegbox. I've seen this on several converted basses. Most makers of 4 string basses keep the E string as the lowest, and conversions done early on often used plates, which were oriented that way as well.

Ok, but I have seen it on French basses that started as 4s, no? Not to mention that all the Meyer and Pollmann's were 4s as well, right?

But besides that and BACK on Topic, your thoughts, opinions, observations or experiences with Spiro reds for Orchestral Bowing?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

I think on a dark sounding bass there is nothing louder or more defined-sounding. But you better have great bow technique, a terrific bow, and a gob of sticky rosin.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

I think on a dark sounding bass there is nothing louder or more defined-sounding. But you better have great bow technique, a terrific bow, and a gob of sticky rosin.

Ok, the Hart, my Lipkins, Bryant or Fetique, sticky rosin of sorts and a bow arm that almost never tires..

I used them decades ago on my old Italian but I don't know if they will work on the Hart.

I did not like Evah weichs, Velvets or the new Flex Dlx on the Hart of the ones I remember I tried and took off almost as fast or faster than they went on. On my Lamy, I have 3 Evah weichs and a Spiro E. The E is easier to bow than the Evahs and darker sounding as well as more focused and powerful. Maybe?

[Bin Hire]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

I think on a dark sounding bass there is nothing louder or more defined-sounding. But you better have great bow technique, a terrific bow, and a gob of sticky rosin.

Sorry Arnold, I really respect your great experience but, I have bowed spiro reds and they didn't seem particularly hard to bow. Mind you, I must be honest and say that I have never had a set on my own bass. Maybe it is time to try them?

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Originally Posted by Bin Hire

Sorry Arnold, I really respect your great experience but, I have bowed spiro reds and they didn't seem particularly hard to bow. Mind you, I must be honest and say that I have never had a set on my own bass. Maybe it is time to try them?

I get it. When I was a classical bass student I also played jazz, lounge and wedding gigs, so I had reds on my bass. (Back then there were really only 2 or 3 metal string choices.) My arco teacher was constantly on my case to get those "chainsaws" off my bass. But I developed decent enough bow technique to pull a reasonable sound. However, compared to modern damped arco strings like BelCanto or Kaplan or Flexicor, Spiros can be very tricky for someone who did not start out with them.

[Alex Verbree]

I use spirocore lower strings on my Upton, And I enjoy them (classical playing). at first, they were very bright, but they have now calmed down a bit. I have a personal preference for using brighter strings on the bottom to help with low range definition, so they suit me just fine, and in terms of bowing i have no difficulty, and i don't consider myself to have the most fantastic of bow arms.


just my $0.02


alex

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

I get it. When I was a classical bass student I also played jazz, lounge and wedding gigs, so I had reds on my bass. (Back then there were really only 2 or 3 metal string choices.) My arco teacher was constantly on my case to get those "chainsaws" off my bass. But I developed decent enough bow technique to pull a reasonable sound. However, compared to modern damped arco strings like BelCanto or Kaplan or Flexicor, Spiros can be very tricky for someone who did not start out with them.

When I had my old Czech/German bass in the early '70s, my friend Victor Venegas told me I needed Flexocors to Bow as I was using Red's. So, I got them (they were like the 92s, reddish/maroon silk) and they sounded dead on my bass with Pizz so, I took them off and stayed with Red's. My next bass and basses I got one after another, my WBW Wilfer from Juzek, Bernardel and Tirol, ALL with Red's and I learned the Dragonetti, Eccles and all my classical training with these basses. In 1973/4 I got my old Italian, selling off the other basses in the process one by one, the old Czech gone first, I put the Reds on the Italian and never looked back. I sometimes tried other strings later on like Rotosouns synthetic Orchestra strings, no longer made but similar in my mind to Obligatos and later the Labella steels for Orchestra which I helped in the testing developments but, always went back to Reds. Homer Mensch had a mix of Spiros on his Italian, with regular, weich and solos to make up his set when that bass came to sale. So, I did see at least one other bowing professional using Sriros.

My only concern here is how they will sound on my bass, the Hart. I have no problem bowing them but, the sound they have is what they have. That, I can't change. I do however want to find out if or how many people currently use then for Orchestra regardless of where they are in the world. For Pizz, I have been able to play Jazz on just about any of my basses with all sorts of Bowing strings. Maybe it's my set-up or my technique or what I like to hear but I am a one string per bass kinda guy. What ever is on the bass, I do everything with.

[Richard Prowse]

Sorry Ken, I know this is a little off topic, but...
if I am tossing up between Kaplans and Spiro Reds - I need a good bowing string that also has a reasonable pizz sound (I don't want a spongy pizz). You've used Kaplans; should I, in your opinion, go for reds or Kaplans?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Richard Prowse

Sorry Ken, I know this is a little off topic, but...
if I am tossing up between Kaplans and Spiro Reds - I need a good bowing string that also has a reasonable pizz sound (I don't want a spongy pizz). You've used Kaplans; should I, in your opinion, go for reds or Kaplans?

I think it depends on your bass. The two basses I tried the Kaplans on are old deep sounding basses, the Hart and the Marconcini school bass. I have never tried Spiro reds on either of those basses.

I will say this thought. Today, I put a set of Spiro Solos (red/yellow) on the Marconcini. I bought them a year ago or so and just never had the chance to use them on anything. Getting back on this 'Reds' idea, I thought it would be interesting to try the Solos on a bass that I have fresh Kaplans on to compare them in preparation for trying the Reds on the Hart.

So, between the Kaplans and the Solo Spiros on the Marconcini, the Kaplans are deeper sounding but in the distance, the Spiro Yellows are louder and sweeter sounding, on THAT Bass. The G string on the solos is much thinner in diameter. The other 3 strings are close or nearly identical in size. The tension and type of sound is totally different.

[Sam Sherry]

That chart is cool for sure. I love the Deutsche ad-man's copy:

"Less inertia, longer period of musical vibration."
Your average bassist would say, "Fast voice, unparalleled sustain."

"Equally effective when playing arco or pizzicato."
As opposed to what? There are a paucity of other choices beyond "arco or pizzicato" and I shudder to think of Ken's Hart suffering from most of them!

In any event, meandering back toward the topic at hand: Ken, I'm sure you won't forget that if you're headed toward orchestral work on Spiros there's no particular reason to install a new set!

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Sam Sherry

That chart is cool for sure. I love the Deutsche ad-man's copy:

"Less inertia, longer period of musical vibration."
Your average bassist would say, "Fast voice, unparalleled sustain."

"Equally effective when playing arco or pizzicato."
As opposed to what? There are a paucity of other choices beyond "arco or pizzicato" and I shudder to think of Ken's Hart suffering from most of them!

In any event, meandering back toward the topic at hand: Ken, I'm sure you won't forget that if you're headed toward orchestral work on Spiros there's no particular reason to install a new set!

Well yes but first off, I need a set with no internal damage completely healthy within the windings and second, a set with an Extension E/C string. Third, it is only June now and I wont have a concert till about October, about four months from now.

So, if I put on a brand new set, I have time to break them in.

As far as bright strings so, I tried a set of Solo Orig. Flatchromes on my Storioni one night. Bright but good sounding. Also, yesterday as a pre-test I put some 'brand new' Solo Spiros (red/yellow) on the Marconcini school bass and they are nice as well. Bright they are but I didn't run away from them.

[Ken Smith]

Ok, having the Solo set on one bass I think is enough for me to test over the Summer. Being that I had them in stock already, it was easy to try them on something without having to order them in. I got them last year just before the prices were about to go up so not I will see what they do.

Tonight I put a set of Jargar Dolce/green silked strings that I got last year as well but haven't had the need to try them. I took off the Kaplans from the Hart and replaced them one string at a time. Each string going on felt like the bass was moving closer to the sound I like most. These are lighter in gauge than the medium/blue Jargar set I tried last year but do not feel or sound thin like other solo sets do. I will have the Summer to play on them and decide if they stay on for the season starting in the fall.

So, instead of going from the new Kaplans to Red's on the Hart, I went to Jargar Dolce's. That's about as far a tonal difference between two strings that are on the market. Spiros and Jargars, complete opposites. I think the Hart is destined to be a smooth, deep, dark sounding bass rather than what it might turn into with Red's. For now, I will never know until that day comes when I have time to try them and I don't have any sets 'already purchased to try out'. I am not closing the door or burning any bridges here (I love the Bridge on the Hart, lol), I am just staying on my normal path of tone for that bass.

[Richard Prowse]

The Kaplans are off! (sorry, used a Smilie - out of character)
Well, here's my dilema. I have EP weichs on and have a recording to do in about four weeks. The EPs will do the job nicely, but I also want to get a string that will bow faster. Ken, I was hoping that you'd be really happy with the Kaplans and, perhaps, suggest that they were also a reasonable pizz string. I don't have time to count on breaking in Reds - it takes about two weeks here to get strings from Lemur music and, because of the internet string thing, most music shops aren't carrying DB strings. There is a guy in Auckland but he charges an arm and a ley; anyway, it's almost as quick to get strings from the US of A.
So, how did you feel about the Kaplans overall? Do they handle fast bowing - say as in Monti's Czardas; and what is their pizz feel like?
I wait in anticipation.

I remember ken raising an eyebrow to me saying I enjoyed spirocore reds for arco playing a while back haha. I've been using a set of belcantos per recommendation from ken (which I love) for the past six months. I think kens description of the spiros being edgier & belcantos being smoother is spot on. Sometimes I feel like these 2 sets would be suited for different composers work rather than a jack of all trades set. I miss my spiros sometimes (which I put on a Romanian flatback I rebuilt & sold to a jazz player) for getting a nice beefy forte on Beethoven pieces. I use black hair & med oak rosin always on both sets by the way.

[Eric Hochberg]

Speaking with my luthier today, who works on many of the basses in the Chicago Symphony, I was told that the strings of choice for many years in the orchestra were EA Spiro Red and DG Flexocores. This is what Joe Guastafeste preferred and the other bassists followed suit.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Eric Hochberg

Speaking with my luthier today, who works on many of the basses in the Chicago Symphony, I was told that the strings of choice for many years in the orchestra were EA Spiro Red and DG Flexocores. This is what Joe Guastafeste preferred and the other bassists followed suit.

I have heard of and seen that string combo used. But, it's only 2 of the 4 strings in the set. Do they still use that set over there?

[Eric Hochberg]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I have heard of and seen that string combo used. But, it's only 2 of the 4 strings in the set. Do they still use that set over there?

Don't know, maybe I can find out.