Breaking in a bass

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

I understand what David said, but it seems to be an exercise in theoretical physics. Surely anything that gets molecules moving will cause friction which will, in turn, cause heat. I suspect that any increase in temperature on the bass would be only a fraction of a degree. Have basses in warm climates improved more than those in colder climates?
Oxidation of the wood also chemically changes the wood. How would anyone ever set up an experiment on this?
I do agree that old wood is harder, on average, than new wood; I suspect it was also harder when it was new. New pine is a crop grown with the intent to maximize yield. I believe that approach produces softer wood.

David, are there little insects in your house singing to the studs, causing them to vibrate?

[David Powell]

Basically what I'm saying in a nutshell:

Anything that produces vibration in the bass or a small amount of heat could speed up the chemical process that is normally due to aging. It is a reasonable hypothesis considering the proven and known nature of chemical reactions, but probably very difficult to prove.

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Greg Clinkingbeard

I understand what David said, but it seems to be an exercise in theoretical physics.

Readily conceded. And I guess that is why physicists who are double bassists would carry out the exercise and patent various processes;- without proof. The thermodynamics behind the exercise are well known and in physics these are now called "laws";- meaning that the observed effect of heat and agitation on reactions that would proceed anyway over a long period of time is consistent. There are many plausible reasons why it could happen somewhat differently, though. And this is why it would be difficult to prove anything. Wood is not a consistent material at the molecular level. Because it is the product of a living thing it has all kinds of unstable stuff in it. If wood were crystalline in structure, that sort of structure locks the molecules in a way that agitation's effect would be canceled except at surfaces. But wood cellulose is a long chain sugar molecule held together by hydrogen bonds. It doesn't have a crystalline lattice structure like steel for instance. Steel rusts, but only where it is in contact with oxygen. And given enough time, it will rust no matter what you do. But painting the surface or coating it slows it down considerably. Oxides of iron are favored by thermodynamics over pure iron. It will not rust from the inside out, but it will rust faster at the surface in a warm and humid environment.

In the wood there are unstable chemicals that react with each other that are in close contact in the wood's structure. These are acids and (relatively speaking) bases right next to each other that tend to neutralize over time, a very long time, because the structure of the wood slows down the migration of reactants through the wood. So the reactions that happen within the wood as it ages happen pretty easily, depending on the moisture in the wood (faster if the wood is wet and warm) and other factors like the density and other components of the wood. It isn't necessary for the wood to be exposed to open air for some of these reactions to proceed. Attempting to seal the wood probably wouldn't slow it down much either. If you want to see an example of accelerated degradation of wood due to heat (and not much heat) simply place a freshly cut piece of spruce (2x4 from any hardware store that has a rapid inventory turn over will do) in the sun with part of it covered by something opaque and the other part exposed directly. Within a few days the exposed part will be darkened. The only energy added is light (heat) and the components in the wood react with each other due to the addition of the light (heat). This will happen without the light also, just a lot slower.

One thing is certain: Freshly harvested wood is chemically unstable. Oxidation is one way to describe what is happening during aging, but mostly it is rapid degradation of partially formed cellulose, hemi-cellulose that is being burned up by acidic lignen. When that has happened completely, the remaining acid attacks the complete cellulose but much more slowly. Most of the hemi-cellulose is consumed within 2-5 years. It would not be practical for most builders of wood items to wait for the cellulose reaction to go to equilibrium, as that might take hundreds of years. But it certainly does happen.

Originally Posted by Greg Clinkingbeard

Surely anything that gets molecules moving will cause friction which will, in turn, cause heat. I suspect that any increase in temperature on the bass would be only a fraction of a degree. Have basses in warm climates improved more than those in colder climates?
Oxidation of the wood also chemically changes the wood. How would anyone ever set up an experiment on this?

I don't think most folks that understand thermodynamics would require proof in every individual case. Enough has been proven that most general cases are predictable. Not everything needs to be that well understood to be put to practical use, either. Take for instance the rather complex engineering of the Roman aqueducts that were built long before Isaac Newton accurately described the forces of gravity. The Romans took their observations as practical fact without any "science". And Ken's experience is that older, well played basses generally sound better. He doesn't need an explanation. So his advice to "play the bass" or to "buy an old one" is pretty solid and well founded. It isn't strange to me that his view is perfectly consistent with what thermodynamics would predict.

Originally Posted by Greg Clinkingbeard

I do agree that old wood is harder, on average, than new wood; I suspect it was also harder when it was new. New pine is a crop grown with the intent to maximize yield. I believe that approach produces softer wood.

Hard to say why the older wood is harder as it appears no one was taking very careful notes. In the case of my house, some think that species of pine is extinct. Some think it was the same as Southern Yellow Pine, just old growth and much larger trees than are currently harvested The boards are definitely nice stuff compared to what you see now. In my hall, which is about 15 feet long, there are only two floor boards that do not span the entire 15 feet. Some of them run past the threshold and go into the foyer all the way to the front door, which is another ten feet. Knots in the wood are extremely rare. I have seen old warehouses along the railway here that have 100+ ft. beams in the rafters that are a single tree. Sadly, in the last few years many of these have burned due to arson with no attempt to salvage the pine. There is no doubt that crop pine trees have been bred to grow extremely fast, and this definitely results in more soft grain and weaker wood. But growth rate and hardness tend to be consistently observable only within a given species. For instance I transplanted two very young Tulip (magnolias that are commonly called yellow poplar) trees when these were under 4 feet tall. One of them was only a few inches tall. These were wild trees. Both are approaching 40 feet tall now and it is less than 15 years ago that these were transplanted. These are averaging an increase in trunk diameter of nearly an inch/year. And I'm sure if these were harvested in a few years that the wood would be consistent in hardness and strength to commercially harvested yellow poplar, which is harder and stronger than spruce 2x4's that even when farmed and bred to grow quickly do not grow at the rate of the wild Tulip trees.

Originally Posted by Greg Clinkingbeard

David, are there little insects in your house singing to the studs, causing them to vibrate?

Probably so, but I thought is was just my ears ringing! The wood in my house is so hard that there are places where years ago the termites gave it a go and gave up! Seriously, the colony would find a run of soft grain and last maybe a few feet in one board and then die out. This was probably more than 75 years ago;- before houses were even treated for bugs. And then there were also powder post beetles. I think they gave up too, or the house would be saw dust by now. But I've often wondered if there might be little creatures in the top wood of the basses dancing around when I start playing it. Possibly gnawing a little here and there to improve the carver's work? Well, I kind of hope not... But seriously, this is factual:

Once when I was bowing some really low notes quite loudly, I looked up to find that several spiders, which I had no idea would be disturbed, had crawled out from behind the woodwork apparently to see what all the commotion was! So at least we know that vibrating the wood will drive the spiders out of hiding.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by David Powell

I don't think most folks that understand thermodynamics would require proof in every individual case. Enough has been proven that most general cases are predictable. Not everything needs to be that well understood to be put to practical use, either. Take for instance the rather complex engineering of the Roman aqueducts that were built long before Isaac Newton accurately described the forces of gravity. The Romans took their observations as practical fact without any "science". And Ken's experience is that older, well played basses generally sound better. He doesn't need an explanation. So his advice to "play the bass" or to "buy an old one" is pretty solid and well founded. It isn't strange to me that his view is perfectly consistent with what thermodynamics would predict.

Speaking of Thermo, my head heats up when I read posts like this, long and Scientific!

So if playing a Bass till it's old makes it sound better, how can you say it's the thermodynamics thingamajig thingy and not just the experience of the harmonics of the wood communicating with itself to sound more mature, seasoned and complex?

On the heat theory, in 1971 shortly after buying a beautiful W.B.Wilfer Bass I got a job for a few weeks on a Cruise Ship. One day while docked in Puerto Rico I took the Bass out in the hot sun and played it for an hour of so in hopes of aging the Bass faster. All it did was make me tired and dehydrated! I don't think that Bass got much from my 'heated' jamming..

If this heat thing is true then I ask you, should one move down South when buying a new Bass and then move up North again after the heat has aged it quicker?

Speaking of time, imagine how much better your own Bass would sound, age and mature if you played it for as long as you spent typing these 'marathon' theoretical posts that most of us get dizzy just trying to read!

Just a thought..lol

[David Powell]

When I posted this, a heated and agitated discussion was not what I had in mind.


Just offering a plausible explanation for what so many of us observe about old and "played-in" instruments. As subtle as the effects would be I don't think one instance of extreme heat exposure or extended playing would mimic true aging. It is possible to add so much heat that the whole natural aging process is wrecked in favor of reactions that only proceed at the higher temperatures. I'd think dehydrating the bass would remove a good deal of the moisture that is one of the necessary vehicles in the wood for acid / base reactions to happen. That is why kiln drying arrests the normal drying / aging process and these woods are not as good for tone wood, but are softer and more desirable for carving into other things that are not musical instruments. Wood carvers prefer kiln dried wood, musical instrument makers usually do not. And the kiln dried stuff is reputedly softer.

I wouldn't recommend any extreme measures to accelerate the aging of an instrument made from relatively new wood. Hooking it up to a jack-hammer or leaving it in the car in full sun are certainly not good ideas.

Normal seasonal changes with the wood taking up moisture and releasing it and regular playing is probably the safest practice. But I do think it is desirable for builders to use wood that is as old as they can possibly obtain because aged wood is aged wood, regardless of when it was carved into a bass. In fact, the heart wood in a live tree is actually dead already, and is much more aged than the outer tree rings even when a tree is harvested. That part of a tree, the old dead wood in the center, is structural support for the living outer part of the tree. It is biologically adaptive for the tree to have stronger aged dead wood in the center. That way it can get taller, withstand the higher winds, and get the best light for photosynthesis.

It is a shame to me that we are losing the best American spruce for future musical instruments to the timber / lumber export market.

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Speaking of Thermo, my head heats up when I read posts like this, long and Scientific!

So if playing a Bass till it's old makes it sound better, how can you say it's the thermodynamics thingamajig thingy and not just the experience of the harmonics of the wood communicating with itself to sound more mature, seasoned and complex?

I can't;- I didn't;- and it is plausible that the two things you mention are in fact the same thing, just described differently.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Speaking of time, imagine how much better your own Bass would sound, age and mature if you played it for as long as you spent typing these 'marathon' theoretical posts that most of us get dizzy just trying to read!

Just a thought..lol

I wrote the post above while I was waiting for my breakfast order to get to my table. I take my laptop there and take advantage of the wifi, not my DB. Believe me, if I could get my DB up to the counter there for some extra time on it, I would.

[Ken Smith]

what so many of us observe about old and "played-in" instruments.

Yes David, I believe that what IS, just IS!!

"What so many of us observe about old and "played-in" instruments."

The best way to have a Bass that sounds old and broken in is to have a Bass that is old and broken in..lol

[quote]When I posted this, a heated and agitated discussion was not what I had in mind.[/qoute]

So who got heated and agitated here? This is a topic with one foot in the 'Twilight Zone' ..

[Greg Clinkingbeard]

David,
http://www.amazon.com/Einstein-Life-...1002971&sr=1-1

Your theory reminds me of this fabulous book. You might enjoy it.
It's not that I doubt the validity of your ideas; just that they seem to be so theoretical as to have no possible application to anyone I can think of.

Personally, I've got enough to think about just concentrating on my playing.


BTW, Einstein was ridiculed mercilessly early in his career. The fact that people may not want to listen shouldn't discourage you.

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Greg Clinkingbeard

David,
http://www.amazon.com/Einstein-Life-...1002971&sr=1-1

Your theory reminds me of this fabulous book. You might enjoy it.
It's not that I doubt the validity of your ideas; just that they seem to be so theoretical as to have no possible application to anyone I can think of.

Personally, I've got enough to think about just concentrating on my playing.


BTW, Einstein was ridiculed mercilessly early in his career. The fact that people may not want to listen shouldn't discourage you.

Well, I don't think I can claim thermodynamics as "my theory" but when you see one of those bumper stickers that says "Honk, if you passed P Chem!", I'm one of the people who can honk. The connection between vibration, heat and the wood chemistry was just something that occurred to me as I was re-reading this thread while stirring some sugar into hot coffee. I probably should have pointed the coffee out as an example, but I kind of ran past that part (too much caffeine), but that is a good illustration of heat and agitation. Developing film (agitation every 30 seconds, tight control of the temperature because it will not develop colder than 60 degrees and will badly overdevelop above 75 degrees, and the agitation is necessary to freshen up the reactants in the gelatin layer) is another. And not unlike the hemi-cellulose / cellulose in wood, the film fixer will attack the silver image when it is done dissolving the unexposed silver salts, so that has to be carefully timed also. Well, it's just a laboratory recipe really. Just like cooking to me. What can I say? I plead guilty to being a chemist nerd. What's that got to do with music you might ask? Well a violinist and a pianist invented Kodachrome. Couple of Einsteins there for sure. They knew enough about harmony to apply it to light. It was a 14 step chemical process. Still the most permanent color film process there is, or was maybe. Digital is taking over. I think it is only processed in Switzerland now.

Thanks for the link, Clink. Almost all the nerds get flack at some point. Usually doesn't slow us down. Right now I'm building an off-the-grid studio in the middle of a major metropolitan city to illustrate that all we need for energy is the sun. Well, it better be enough because it is all we really have. Of course the previous mayor of Atlanta (he should be about half-way through his federal jail sentence about now) would have denied my building permit because his cronies wanted to force me to sell my properties to them cheap. So I had to wait for that @#$%! to be out of office before I could proceed. That one was a real exercise in thermodynamics;- the building design I mean. I'm using vacuum tube heat collectors that work in temperatures well below freezing and even on cloudy days. The entire roof is a translucent polycarbonate skylight. It will use a subfloor hydronic tube radiant heat system. Passive cooling is provided by a couple of 150 year old oak trees that shade the whole site, if these survive the current drought. If it ever rains again in Georgia (we are beginning to wonder) all the roof water will be collected for household use. In a normal year that will provide 46 gallons / day. The vacuum tube heat collector technology is 30 years old, and pretty well proven by now. It is not too expensive to do it all either. Definitely better than burning the midnight oil. I guess it has put me in this mode of ****yzing everything in terms of heat loss and gain. I'll be glad when it is finished.