Another mystery bass?

[David Moss]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

My thought was, "why does a Bass of even a Violin need anything more than Gamba corners or corners at all other than for the sake of looks and style"?

Personally I love the look of the Cremonese-style violin form basses, they're very pretty works of art. But I sometimes think they look a little out of place on stage with a jazz combo - like playing jazz in a tuxedo and black bow tie. Gamba form looks more laid back and goes better my cargo pants and open neck shirt.

One other aspect you didn't mention is carrying the bass - violin corners make better carrying handles than gamba corners. Your cornerless bass is very cool, but I can't even imagine how I'd pick it up.

[Ken Smith]

The Bass looks Bohemian/German to me about 100 years old or so +/- 25 yrs.

The Varnish looks new as I don't' see much wear/patina on the body. The Back looks lighter in color and the grain, looks like plywood.

Maybe some better pictures with better light might help.

[David Moss]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

The Bass looks Bohemian/German to me about 100 years old or so +/- 25 yrs.

The Varnish looks new as I don't see much wear/patina on the body. The Back looks lighter in color and the grain, looks like plywood.

Maybe some better pictures with better light might help.

Oops! Sorry Mr. Dodd - you must be turning in your grave!

Yes, those picture taken by the previous owner are pretty poor and may well be misleading. The true color of the upper back is much darker than in the close-up of the purfling, but not as dark as in the overall back picture. The lighter areas at the top right and near the right hand C bout are finish differences, no sign of wood having been replaced. They're also not as light as the picture shows.

All I know about this bass's history is what the previous owner told me: sometime in the mid 90s he (an amateur violinist) went to a double bass teacher friend to ask for classical lessons for his son, who was about 14 at the time, and he asked the same friend for help buying an instrument. The friend called back a few weeks later to say he'd found an instrument at a low price because of very poor condition, and he felt it would turn out pretty good when it was restored. The customer agreed, and the music teacher had the restoration done by a luthier friend of his in the Frankfurt region, identity unknown. The customer never knew what work was done, he trusted his music teacher friend and just gave him the cash for the purchase and restoration, and the music teacher took care of everything.

Some ten years later I bought the bass because the son had finally plucked up the courage to admit to his fearsome dad that he had no interest in music! The bass clearly hadn't been well cared for in the last 10 years: the strings were dire and poorly fitted, the bridge was much too wide and not shaped to the top at all (I could almost slide a credit card under it), the sound post was too long and installed in the wrong place, which had led to a crack opening at the f-hole. But my teacher and I agreed that even in that condition it sounded great, a beautifully dark old wood tone and wonderfully open especially on the A and D strings, and all other cracks very professionally repaired. So I bought it, on the basis that I was getting an approx. 100 year old, great sounding no-name German bass for everyday amateur jazz use, with a joke fake label inside. I paid 2400 bucks plus 350 total for the repair work, new bridge and new strings, and I still think I got a terrific bargain - and Charlie Haden said "wow" when he heard it (honest, no kidding!).

As I already said: the information from the luthier that it was a 200-year old 3-string body with a 100-year old 4-string neck grafted on made me wonder if the label could be real after all. Now that I related the story, I realize that this is highly unlikely - if the music teacher and his luthier pal had thought the label was real, they wouldn't have sold the bass to a 14-year old kid beginner.

I'll try to post some better pictures here in the next few days. Thanks to everybody for your interest!

[Ken Smith]

Yes, a read Dodd would me be cheap to anyone including a 14yr old.

Still many German basses like this sound great for jazz or orchestra. I played beside 3 of them last night and all week long in the section. I used an Italian bass.

On the 3-string theory, I don't buy it. Most Germanic Basses and almost all Bohemian Basses were made a 4-strings. The 3-string was in wider use in England, France, Spain, Italy and USA. Germany and eastward were mostly 4-string by then with some 5s as well.

[David Moss]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

On the 3-string theory, I don't buy it. Most Germanic Basses and almost all Bohemian Basses were made a 4-strings. The 3-string was in wider use in England, France, Spain, Italy and USA. Germany and eastward were mostly 4-string by then with some 5s as well.

Well yes, precisely. That's exactly the reason why I started to think that maybe it really is English rather than German after all. Then when I saw your comments on the "unknown bass" thread about the low-set f-holes of your bass compared with the Corsby, which mine also has, and combining that with the luthier's certainty of 200 years old based on the body interior style and workmanship, it started to get interesting. But this is where we came in...

Alternative hypothesis is that mine is indeed German and therefore not a 3-string. But then you need to explain the limited space available for the four strings, i.e. the closeness of the bass bar to the center line. The luthier found that even his narrowest bridge for 3/4 bass was too wide, he had to use one intended for a 1/2 bass, measuring only 3 3/4 inches between feet centers. He thought nobody would build a 4-string bass that narrow, but it would be normal for a 3-string. That sounded logical to me, what do you think?

BTW, I don't think the back is plywood. When I look at my modern hybrid, I can clearly see the plywood layers running parallel at the edge of the back, whereas at the edge of the carved top I see perpendicular grain. On the old bass we're discussing here, I see perpendicular grain at the edges of the top and the back. Am I right in assuming that's a reliable way to distinguish solid from plywood?

[Ken Smith]

On my Bass, the FFs are extremely wide apart. If the Bass bar was against the upper F hole eye, the bridge width needed would be about 180-190mm wide. That's not a 3/4 or 4/4. That's a 5/4 or 6/4 if such a thing exists. Actually, the current Bar is set in a biot and the Bridge width will be about 165mm. On your Bass, where the Bar is set means little to the origin of the Bass unless it's a rare instance whereas it's the original bar. Highly unlikely I think.

The style of your Bass looks totally German to me. I have seen 3-string German Basses but these were lower grade factory Basses around 100 years old or so, maybe more. I believe they were made for the export market as German did ship across Europe into France and England where the 3-string ruled up until the 20th century.

On the wood of your Back, I would like to see the edges and some other shots in better lighting. I can't tell what kind of wood it is from your shots. On the other hand, many English Basses actually look German as that is what the copied the most. It would also be good to post ALL of its measurements like the ones I give on my webpages. Here is an example;

Upper Bout: 22"Belly Length: 47" (45"- 46" after Block cut)
Center Bout: 15 3/8"
Bottom Bout: 28 1/2"
String Length: about 42" w/Block Cut (was 44")
Rib Depth: 8 1/2" ** Upper Bout tapers from 8 1/2" to 5 3/4" with slope of the Back to the Neck Block.

[David Moss]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

On your Bass, where the Bar is set means little to the origin of the Bass unless it's a rare instance whereas it's the original bar. Highly unlikely I think.

OK, point taken. In that case there's no reason to suppose it was ever anything else but a four-string. There are signs that it's had some less than expert repair work in it's history (which I'll show in the forthcoming pictures), so it's plausible that the same somebody put in a new bass bar too close to the center line.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

The style of your Bass looks totally German to me.

That now seems unanimous. My bass teacher and the violinist seller both guessed Markneuenkirchen (Saxony), whereas the luthier's gut feeling was further south, maybe Bohemia. The only reason to think otherwise was the supposed three-string origin, which you've now discounted.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

On the wood of your Back, I would like to see the edges and some other shots in better lighting. I can't tell what kind of wood it is from your shots.

Yes, definitely. I fell guilty about getting you to do so much ****ysis when you're essentially flying blind! Tomorrow I'll try to take some pictures under natural daylight at our patio door, and I'll make sure the colors look right at least on my computer before posting.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

It would also be good to post ALL of its measurements like the ones I give on my webpages.

Will do.