Another mystery bass?

[Ken Smith]

On my Bass, the FFs are extremely wide apart. If the Bass bar was against the upper F hole eye, the bridge width needed would be about 180-190mm wide. That's not a 3/4 or 4/4. That's a 5/4 or 6/4 if such a thing exists. Actually, the current Bar is set in a biot and the Bridge width will be about 165mm. On your Bass, where the Bar is set means little to the origin of the Bass unless it's a rare instance whereas it's the original bar. Highly unlikely I think.

The style of your Bass looks totally German to me. I have seen 3-string German Basses but these were lower grade factory Basses around 100 years old or so, maybe more. I believe they were made for the export market as German did ship across Europe into France and England where the 3-string ruled up until the 20th century.

On the wood of your Back, I would like to see the edges and some other shots in better lighting. I can't tell what kind of wood it is from your shots. On the other hand, many English Basses actually look German as that is what the copied the most. It would also be good to post ALL of its measurements like the ones I give on my webpages. Here is an example;

Upper Bout: 22"Belly Length: 47" (45"- 46" after Block cut)
Center Bout: 15 3/8"
Bottom Bout: 28 1/2"
String Length: about 42" w/Block Cut (was 44")
Rib Depth: 8 1/2" ** Upper Bout tapers from 8 1/2" to 5 3/4" with slope of the Back to the Neck Block.

[David Moss]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

On your Bass, where the Bar is set means little to the origin of the Bass unless it's a rare instance whereas it's the original bar. Highly unlikely I think.

OK, point taken. In that case there's no reason to suppose it was ever anything else but a four-string. There are signs that it's had some less than expert repair work in it's history (which I'll show in the forthcoming pictures), so it's plausible that the same somebody put in a new bass bar too close to the center line.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

The style of your Bass looks totally German to me.

That now seems unanimous. My bass teacher and the violinist seller both guessed Markneuenkirchen (Saxony), whereas the luthier's gut feeling was further south, maybe Bohemia. The only reason to think otherwise was the supposed three-string origin, which you've now discounted.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

On the wood of your Back, I would like to see the edges and some other shots in better lighting. I can't tell what kind of wood it is from your shots.

Yes, definitely. I fell guilty about getting you to do so much ****ysis when you're essentially flying blind! Tomorrow I'll try to take some pictures under natural daylight at our patio door, and I'll make sure the colors look right at least on my computer before posting.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

It would also be good to post ALL of its measurements like the ones I give on my webpages.

Will do.

[Cormac OBrien]

That cornerless bass looks like a real beauty Ken, where did you find it? Was it expensive? What kind of gigs do you use it for?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Corrmac OBrien

That cornerless bass looks like a real beauty Ken, where did you find it? Was it expensive? What kind of gigs do you use it for?

Well, it is a very old Bass and a very good Bass sound wise. That along with the history and use of the Bass puts it in the upper class of Basses. It was owned and used by the former Principal Bassist of the Pennsylvania Ballet for over 30 years. Everyone in the Philly area knows that Bass. I was told last year by a member of the Philly Orch. that in the old Ballet Theater (which was not a good acoustical hall), you could hear that Bass thru the Orchestra up in the 'nose bleed' section (upper balcony)!

The sound is so powerful and deep, it almost hurts your ears when listening to it. You ask about its usage? Well, it will do anything you ask it to do. I played two Jazz gigs already with it. One was a Vibes/Bass duo with no amp and the other was a Piano/Bass duo where I used an old Mic. in the bridge in the amp. Sound wise, it filled the room and with regular Flexocors it has a ton of sustain. With the Bow, it's about the easiest Bass to Bow that I own. In an Orchestra, I am never drowned out by anyone or the entire section for that matter.

The price since you ask is in my opinion not high for what it does and what it is. Basses lately, the real good ones have been selling from about 140-470k from what I have seen with the old Italians with the English going for 120-150 for the best ones. This Bass was offered to me by the owner before he died for 160k. Within a few months of his passing, the Bass was evaluated by some of New Yorks finest which helped me acquire it for a lower price. It is going into restoration soon but last year, just after I got it several qualified buyers called to ask the price for the Bass as-is pre-restored. The price quoted was then 100k and for 2 months was played and used by the Principal and asst. Prin. of the National Symphony. One comment was that a 'Horn player on break came back and said 'I can hear that thing from the bathroom'. The Bass is not for sale as-is any more. After its restoration I will play it and break it back in. Then, if I decide to sell it I will set the price to reflect the market for a similar sounding Bass considering its restored condition, age and pedigree. I don't think it will be less than what my house cost!

[Anselm Hauke]

sorry for being offtopic, but....:
"David Moss
Join Date: 02-02-2008
Location: Ettlingen, Germany
Posts: 6"

ETTLINGEN, what is going on there?


http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5povNXsb8eI

[David Moss]

ETTLINGEN, what is going on there?

Well, you know how it is when it's carneval time down here in southwest Germany - people do the wildest things!

But seriously - thanks for the heads up, I didn't know that was on YouTube. The soloist Matteo Gaspari is impressive, isn't he? I saw him on stage here once, playing the music in a production of Suesskind's play "The Contrabass". Not a local guy as far as I understand, I believe he came here from Italy to study classical double bass at the nearby Karlsruhe music school, graduated in 2006 with flying colours, and by then had so many engagements with local orchestras and ensembles that he decided to stay on. Ettlingen's gain, I think!

[David Moss]

Originally Posted by David Moss

Tomorrow I'll try to take some pictures under natural daylight at our patio door, and I'll make sure the colors look right at least on my computer before posting.

I picked the wrong day for taking pictures! I wanted an overcast day to get some diffuse daylight on the bass, but what I got was heavy rain all day and a really dark sky. I had to turn the iso on my camera all the way up which gave me grainy images, and I still had to handhold at 1/15 to 1/4 shutter speeds, a tripod just couldn't get the camera to the places I needed. I'll have to try again at the weekend and hope for better light. In the meantime, here are the four best attempts and the measurements. Thanks in advance for your opinions.

Upper Bout: 20"
Belly Length: 43"
Center Bout: 14 1/8"
Bottom Bout: 25 1/2"
Scale Length: 42 1/2"
Rib Depth: 8"
Angle break in back plate: begins 9" from top of back plate, upper rib bout tapers to 5 1/2" at the neck block



Overview of the top plate. At least you can now see it's made of wood, in contrast to the previous picture! The color looks about right on my monitor. Full size image (1920x2560) is here.



Upper back plate. The apparent sudden change in color/finish from the lower left corner isn't real, it's just the different angle of illumination above and below the angle break. Purfling seems not to be just painted, I can feel an indentation when I run my thumbnail over it. Full size image (2560 x 1920) here.



Sorry for the camera shake on this one, 1/4 sec handheld exposure... Color here is slightly lighter than in reality, the next picture catches it better. Another seeker of knowledge on the TB forum has the same ebony strips either side of the neck heel and small circular patch, see here - are these covering a peg or bolt? My luthier told me it's an approx. 100 year old neck on an even older body, but didn't say whether the neck graft was done 100 years ago or recently. I know the bass had a major restoration in the mid 1990's, maybe it was done then. Full size image (2560 x 1920) here.



Upper bout ribs on G side, showing a large patch of non-matching wood. Colors here look OK to me. My luthier told me this is a very old repair, he found the workmanship pretty good but the choice of wood eccentric to say the least. I stupidly forgot to ask him what wood was used in the patch, but my bass teacher thinks it's poplar. Full size image (2560 x 1920) here.

[Ken Smith]

First off, on the Rib measurements, were they inside the Top and Back or including them?

On the wood of your Back and Ribs, again it looks like Slab or rolled cut Maple like you find in Veneer or Plywood. Maybe even Birch but the closeups are blurry and I can't see the grain clearly. Please, look with a flashlight and magnifier glass along the edges of the Bass and Rib-to-Rib joints and tell me if you see any hint of laminations there. I just can't see it well enough in these pictures.

On the origin, looking at the angle break side view with the outer rib linings it looks Germanic/Bohemian but even more so now than before. The Varnish also looks fairly new so I would guess it was re-finished not long ago.

The wood on the Back and Ribs are very unusual for a Bass from this region. The purfled design in the lower Back is similar (but not identical) to Basses made by Pfretzschner or rather Markneukirchen shop Basses.

[David Moss]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

First off, on the Rib measurements, were they inside the Top and Back or including them?

8" is the rib measurements inside the top and back plates. Total depth of the instrument including the top and back is about 8 1/2".

On the wood of your Back and Ribs, again it looks like Slab or rolled cut Maple like you find in Veneer or Plywood. Maybe even Birch but the closeups are blurry and I can't see the grain clearly. Please, look with a flashlight and magnifier glass along the edges of the Bass and Rib-to-Rib joints and tell me if you see any hint of laminations there. I just can't see it well enough in these pictures.

Yes, the poor light was very frustrating. Thanks for your tip with the magnifying glass and flashlight, I'll do that and report. There are places at the edges of the back plate where I think I'm seeing wood grain running across the edge, indicating solid wood, but I really want to post pictures of that to get your opinion. I also want to get some good closeups of the purfling on the top and back plates, to see if you think they match. I'll try to deliver better pictures at the weekend.

On the origin, looking at the angle break side view with the outer rib linings it looks Germanic/Bohemian but even more so now than before. The Varnish also looks fairly new so I would guess it was re-finished not long ago.

Then the re-finish was presumably part of the major restoration in the mid-90s, commissioned by the previous owner when he acquired the bass.

The wood on the Back and Ribs are very unusual for a Bass from this region.

Do you mean unusual for Bohemia, or unusual for the entire German/Bohemian school?

The purfled design in the lower Back is similar (but not identical) to Basses made by Pfretzschner or rather Markneukirchen shop Basses.

Yes, very interesting - Markneukirchen was also my bass teacher's guess. There's a similar design on this one as well. Was this teardrop shape a Pfretzschner exclusive, or did other makers copy it?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by David Moss

Then the re-finish was presumably part of the major restoration in the mid-90s, commissioned by the previous owner when he acquired the bass.

Restoration show mean restore, not alter. Old varnishes show be touched up, matched and clear coated at the most. Only in extreme cases of paint or damage should an old Bass be refinished.

Do you mean unusual for Bohemia, or unusual for the entire German/Bohemian school?

Yes, the entire region. Quartered Maple is what we usually see from that region.

Yes, very interesting - Markneukirchen was also my bass teacher's guess. There's a similar design on this one as well. Was this teardrop shape a Pfretzschner exclusive, or did other makers copy it?

The link you show is the same shop (I think) that made the Bass I showed which was an early import as well and labeled Morelli here in USA. I have seen various designs and No, they are not always the same shop unless it is identical in size and design. Even then, it could have been farmed out.[/quote]

I see the Tear Drop/Plum design on Imports labeled Morelli and G.A. Pfretzschner. G.A. was a famous Bow maker. C.F. was the family of 3 generations than made Violins thru Basses and the only non-Bow makers of the Pfretzschenrs. Most Basses by the last generation I would assume.

Other similar shaper Tear Drop designs are just a design but not necessarily a shop Bass. The same goes for the Horn/Crest design we have seen on all the Wilfer Bass, the Wilfer made Juzek imports, the Plywood made Lang/Juzek imports, Roth Basses, Hoffner Basses and other Bohemian Basses made way before Juzek or Wilfer like this Bass of mine.

[David Moss]

So, finally got some good daylight and some time to take pictures. The overviews now show the color correctly to my satisfaction, and I hope the close-ups are showing enough detail of the wood grain.



Below: two views showing the edge of the back plate. No signs of laminations to my inexpert eye, looks to me like wood grain all the way across the edge, so I guess this is a solid wood back.



Below left: Lower bout rib on the E side. Below center: No sign of a dovetail joint where the neck joins the top plate. Below right: Another shot of the teardrop purfling decoration.