5-String Bass playing..

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Arnold Schnitzer

I've just built my first fiver, and I have to say, set-up is a B---h! The other day I regraduated and dressed the fingerboard for the third time. I wanted more arch and now I finally feel that the bow crossings are comfortable. Of course I added some arch to the bridge as well. I have the bridge spaced at 26mm, which is a meager 1mm narrower than my usual set-up. The few fivers I've seen from Europe were mostly 25mm or so. Anyway, I had to add a little extra arch to the set-up so the player could still dig in and avoid playing double-stops. The hardest string to make playable is the E. Now I feel it's all working nicely.

Playing a 5er seems to always be a challenge. I loaned out my converted Hungarian 5er once and asked the European played for an evaluation on the set-up and told me the spacing was tight (at about 26mm then I think). In Europe, 5s are standard issue in a Pro Orchestra. They consider C-Extensions to be a 'cheap fix'. I can play most things that come up on the Ext. but once in a while, I need that 5er. Gotta have one to play all the notes evenly as written.

I think my current full sized 5er is at 27mm or so at the Bridge. The FB was quite wide so I moved them as far apart as possible. Spacing is not a problem now on that Bass. The 17-18" C-bouts are..

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I think my current full sized 5er is at 27mm or so at the Bridge. The FB was quite wide so I moved them as far apart as possible.

The problem is finding a fingerboard wide enough to handle spacing like that. Anyone know of a good source? I was only able to find "Full-size" boards, which are about 5-6mm narrower than optimal for a 5-er.

[Matthew Heintz]

Arnold, I understand that you've recently built a four string and a five string from Walnut (both based on the same model?). I understand that each instrument is custom built for your customers, but, to the extent possible, can you compare the sound from each instrument? Does the fiver have roughly equivalent volume, projection, response?

Ken, having converted four stringers to five stringers, can you describe the response of the instrument with an additional string? I read that the additional string adds pressure to the top and may restrict movement of the top; hence, some old basses sounded more open strung as three-stringers. But perhaps this is mostly a set-up issue?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Heintz

Arnold, I understand that you've recently built a four string and a five string from Walnut (both based on the same model?). I understand that each instrument is custom built for your customers, but, to the extent possible, can you compare the sound from each instrument? Does the fiver have roughly equivalent volume, projection, response?

Ken, having converted four stringers to five stringers, can you describe the response of the instrument with an additional string? I read that the additional string adds pressure to the top and may restrict movement of the top; hence, some old basses sounded more open strung as three-stringers. But perhaps this is mostly a set-up issue?

The Bass that was converted to a 5er went in for a Restoration. The Top was very highly arched and very strong. It barely needed much of a Bassbar at all, just ask Arnold. This was a newish Bass and was healthy for the most part. It needed Top graduation and some work to the Back as well. The Scroll/Pegbox was all plugged up and then drilled and fitted with 5 Gears. The Bassbar that went is was way more than needed for a 4-string as it was going to be a 5. This was also a fairly large Bass like a 7/8 we call it here in USA and maybe a 4/4 in Europe.

The Fingerboard was as wide as Arnold could get and I think we had 25-26mm bridge spacing (not sure but closer to 25 maybe, can't recall). It played tight with the Bow but played well.

I had it set-up for Orchestra with a Low B. When it was sold, it was re-strung with a High C down to E for a jazz player. This 4-5 conversion was done before I got my first Chromatic Extension which was on the Martini. From then on I played all the Lows on the Extension. This season I did 2 Orchestra Christmas concerts with my current 4/4 sized (or 5/4) 5er. This huge Bass was actually made as a 5er from the start. This FB is about 4" wide at the high C (on the G) at the end of the FB.

On the Top pressure, most old Basses were made for 3 or 4 Gut strings, not Steel. From Gut to Steel the Bass internally needs to be re-worked usually. From 3 to 4-string, it does as well. From 3 Gut strings to 4 Steel strings, the Top needs extra support unless its a real real strong Top. My Mystery bass still has its short low Bassbar for Gut strings but in the last 100 years was converted to 4-strings. I don't know how old the Bar is but it could be as new as the 4-string conversion within that 100 years. At the recent/current restoration, we left the 'Bar in as-is. This Top is super strong. Only time will tell how it works with 4 steel strings. The Bridge that came with the Bass had wider notches cut for Gut. I am re-using the old Bridge but re-cut and adjusters added.

Every Bass and every piece of wood is different. You just have to look at each one individually and judge them as they are strength and repair wise.

[Matthew Heintz]

Interesting as always, Ken, thank you.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Originally Posted by Matthew Heintz

Arnold, I understand that you've recently built a four string and a five string from Walnut (both based on the same model?). I understand that each instrument is custom built for your customers, but, to the extent possible, can you compare the sound from each instrument? Does the fiver have roughly equivalent volume, projection, response?

Too early to tell. Roughly equivalent I would guess. The model is a bit different, the arching is a bit higher, and the graduations are a little heavier. But the air volume is also a bit bigger so my hope is that it all just about equals out.

[Matthew Heintz]

Thank you, Arnold. Keep us posted.

[Joel Larsson]

I wouldn't say that five stringers are standard. I think it's very common, at least in Swedish orchestras, to play standard four-stringers (although most have a C-extension these days) and maybe have some fivers thrown in in lack of more extendeds, for good measure, or because some things are simply easier to play on a fiver. A problem for all individuals and most orchestras is that a fiver equivalent to a good 4 is a lot more expensive, this probably being a result of the general problems that comes with a high pressure, and the bigger overall size. A 5er that feels and plays like a 4-string is simply rare. We have a 70's Pöllmann 5-string at school which is now poorly set up by some luthier who obviously was better with violins; it's huge, it makes you hurt, but I still think it'd sell at a rather high price. The value of a brand new five stringer therefore usually better matches the invested amount than a 4-string.

A Rubner 5-string I played once was unusually good (both for being a Rubner and being a hi low-to-mid class bass) but its bass bar was too weak, and the top was sagging in a way which seemed to imply that it would be around much longer.

I believe many people with high end basses, who wants to be able to use them also for the pieces that requires a fifth string, prefer to put on an extension over having it converted to 5 strings. The small hole drilled in the scroll is less molesting to the bass and its history than having it converted properly, plus, many players have expressed gratification of the way their basses seems to have "opened up" with the extended E, while an added B-string is unlikely to improve the tonal qualities, even on basses that were absolute high end from the beginning.

Arnold is completely right that the required arch of the bridge and FB may surprise anyone. Ergonomical issues, and problems with hitting the top or corners with the bow, may arise as the G gets far away from you. I usually like playing them, though, as long as they are decently set up.