What do you want in a bass ?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

It shouldn't add much of anything to the price of a bench made DB. Nor will the beefier tailblock. Handmade basses are way underpriced for the time it takes to design and make a custom one. They cost about as much as bench made Cello and even some violins are 25 - 30K.

Ken, I gotta wonder about that 20% change in volume and depth of sound with one little hole plugged at the tailblock area. As far as pure acoustics, pschychoacoustics of bowed stringed instruments it should not make that much difference. OTOH I am sure you don't speak lightly about stuff like that.

Well, for what ever reason I was able to feel the air shotting down out of this hole when I put my foot under the bass while playing it unplugged, the hole that is. It felt like it was actually down firing out of the hole, the sound that is. I can't say I measured the volume and tone at 20% but it was a noticeable and clear difference when plugged.

Do you believe that F-hole size matters much as far as volume and tone of a given bass? I haven't seen this discussed all that much around here or anywhere else. For the record, I do!

[Ken McKay]

No I haven't noticed any correlation of F hole size to either volume or depth of sound. This is easy to test if you cover a portion of the soundhole, it either changes or not.

From what I have seen and heard, the things that do seem to matter are f-hole placement. This might be from their effect on the top plate resonances. Of course this is hard to prove. I am thinking that wider spacing effects the depth because of the flexibility of the plate goes up across the grain when spaced wider apart. This would effect depth of sound the most I think if the f holes are wider spaced. But the air inside needs to be able to reinforce the plate movement or it is wasted movement. So air volume and plate resonance needs to match. More of this can be heard as more fundamental to the tone.

Holes in the side of the upper bout don't seem to effect depth or volume much. I have played Arnold's ergo and I heard him say this also.

A hole in a place of maximum rigidity of the plates (tailblock) might theoretically highly effected sound. I have read that air pressure is highest there. Since the air pressure reinforces the plate vibration of both the top and back, a loss of pressure could decrease volume or depth.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

My non-scientific belief is that overly large f-holes are not good for tone. I will try to explain, based on a lengthy conversation I had about a decade ago with Tom Martin. We think that when the f-holes of a bass are really big, the sound jumps out of the bass quickly, creating the illusion of power. But when the f-holes are sized right, the sound has more time to roll around inside the corpus and it gets seasoned. Then the tone is more complex and woody, but the bass may not sound quite as loud in the immediate surrounding area. However, it will spread out into the hall and the audience will get more bass sound. Now this begs the question, "what is the right size?". My answer is, I know it when I see it. I think many of the Italian and English masters had it right, i.e., Panormo, the Testores, Ruggieri, etc. Contrarily, to my eye many of the Germans, Viennese, and some of the Americans make/made their f-holes overly large and open. And I have also had experience where very small f-holes seem to be holding back the power of a bass. I had the experience of enlarging them on a fine bass once, and I thought the instrument's power improved. Then again, other modifications were made, so I can't be sure.

[kurt muroki]

I always go for sound and volume before all else especially in chamber music where I am all alone and do not need to blend and my primary objective.

[Ken McKay]

Italians used proprotional geometry to place the f holes, Might that have a lot to do with them looking and sounding right?

Structuraly there is a lot going on in this area. The flexiblility of the plate in this area is highly effected by the placement of the f holes and their spacing, length, width of wings, slope and area. Arching, thickness and edge scoop also highly effect the structure of the top plate in this area. The bridge sits right in the middle and transmits the string movement directly to the top, right in the middle of the f holes. Theres a lot going on here!

Viols had C holes with a similar area as f holes. But the C holes covered much less horizontal grain so the plate was stiffer in that area. F holes evolved to create the more violin like sound that is now favored in larger concert halls.

So that is why I think f holes effect the sound a lot but not by air movement. The air pumping out of the box through the f holes creates a fullness to the sound. And I have noticed even cheap plywood basses have that whoomph, air sound. But the complex tone from a good bass comes from resonating of the bass body.

I just don't think the f hole size effects tone much by itself, unless they are too small or large. I am going to do some tests later this week.
edit: By allowing or not allowing air to pump, I should have said.

[Craig Regan]

How does f-hole placement effect the sound?

If the f-hole is moved closer to the center of the bass, is the sound deeper with more bass response?

Or does the bass have a more treble response if the f-holes are moved closer to the outer ribs?

This is just a theory; still looking for evidence.

[Arnold Schnitzer]

Originally Posted by Craig Regan

How does f-hole placement effect the sound?

If the f-hole is moved closer to the center of the bass, is the sound deeper with more bass response?

Or does the bass have a more treble response if the f-holes are moved closer to the outer ribs?

This is just a theory; still looking for evidence.

I would say you have that backwards. If the f-holes are close together, this necessitates a narrow bridge and then you have the bass bar and soundpost close together. When that is the case, the bass bar is constricted in its swinging. When the f-holes are farther apart, so can the bass bar and soundpost be, therefore resulting in a fatter, deeper sound. Also, when the f-holes are close to the corners you take advantage of the same effect that makes a bass player sound louder when playing out of a corner. I don't remember the name of this effect, but I bet Ken McKay does...

This does not mean you should place f-holes all the way to the edges, because your tonal balance will suffer. The f-hole upper holes should be spaced the same distance apart as the size of bridge you wish to use. What, design the instrument from the set-up backwards? Exactly.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Do you believe that F-hole size matters much as far as volume and tone of a given bass? I haven't seen this discussed all that much around here or anywhere else. For the record, I do!

So ... can you elaborate on exactly what you believe matters?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

So ... can you elaborate on exactly what you believe matters?

Well, it is impossible to compare anything unless the exact same Bass is altered. I recently had one of my Basses slightly altered as Arnold mentioned and there was a slight noticeable difference. The Bass also got a Neck graft with a longer neck, string length 1" longer, the neck block converted from a dovetail to a mortise with a tighter fit from neck to block, new Fingerboard, the Back re-repaired, some other internal work tightened up and a partial center back Brace.

So, what exactly made the bass sound better? Hard to tell..

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Well, it is impossible to compare anything unless the exact same Bass is altered. I recently had one of my Basses slightly altered as Arnold mentioned and there was a slight noticeable difference. The Bass also got a Neck graft with a longer neck, string length 1" longer, the neck block converted from a dovetail to a mortise with a tighter fit from neck to block, new Fingerboard, the Back re-repaired, some other internal work tightened up and a partial center back Brace.

Oh. As you put on the record that you did think that F hole size mattered, I thought you might have some empirical evidence or observation of your own from the many fine basses you own, that you might be able to share. But what you're saying is that from your experience you can't actually say for sure that altering the F hole size matters much at all?

I agree with your last point that there are just too many variables in DB luthiery to be able to make any reliable rule of thumb.

For the record, *I* don't know what the effect of changing F hole size does, as a generalization. Nor F hole placement, angle, edge shape, length, area etc. It would be nice to have a formula to work with, but I don't think there's going to be one. My own hunch is that it is not so much the size or shape of the F holes that matters for sound, so much as the size and shape of the space left between them. So it's the INSIDE edge of the FFs that is most important; the outside edge has a marginal effect. But I don't have any evidence to back that up. Arnold's observations are valuable but I don't think anyone would care to predict the outcome on a bass's sound based on those alone.

[Ken Smith]

The air does come out of the holes as if it's the 'sound window'. The size of the window can be too small or to big to handle the air pressure or lack of it. What is better or worse, who knows? Softer woods might have different formulas than harder woods, etc. Placement of the Fs is another issue as far as the bass itself goes. Too exact basses with different wood might differ as well.

I am a firm believer that the wood matters. A LOT.

Actually, everything matters. If there was a formula, there wouldn't be as many models around as there are now.

I know a good bass when I hear it or play it. I speculate quite a bit with basses that are barely playable or totally unplayable and usually come out ok after restoration. It's the 'package' and not just one factor that makes or breaks a bass design wise.

[Martin Sheridan]

Stradivari and before him, the Amati, had definite ideas about F hole placement. Stradivari's original designs still exist showing how and where he marked the fs. In fact these marking are still visible inside, on the top inside, of the Servais cello. Personally, I'm unclear about how he arrived at the exact placing, but the top holes appear to be in the center of the Cs and top curve of the bottom hole is in line with the bottom of the purfling as it curves into the bottom C corner. In fact this is one thing that experts look for when identifying classic Italian instruments. This was almost always ahered to, but Guarneri del Gesu made a few exceptions where you will see the bottom hole somewhat higher although the top holes follow the Amati/Stradivari principle.

Now when it comes to basses,there are so few from the classical period extant that I don't know if applies. If anyone has a good picture of the
1690 J. B. Rogeri take a look at it and report back as it's believed that he studied with Nicolo Amati and so he probably would have incorporated this into his basses (bass?). I've seen that bass and right now I can't remember.

I had a very old Italian bass in my shop once that had the longest F holes I've ever seen, not particularly wide, but very long. You would have thought that the top wouldn't have stood the strain, but it was in fine condition and the sound was quite good.

[Matthew Tucker]

Originally Posted by Martin Sheridan

Stradivari and before him, the Amati, had definite ideas about F hole placement. [...] This was almost always ahered to, .

But do we know whether his ideas were based on an aesthetic design principle that happened to work OK, so he stuck with it ... or whether he tried dozens of different sizes and placements (keeping all other things equal, of course) until he found the BEST one? I tend to think the former is more likely. We don't have any evidence of strads with experimental FF hole placement, do we?

In relation to basses, there are SO MANY variations in corpus volume, plate shape, string length, top graduation, internal bracing, rib depth, wood choice etc that I can't see how any of the placement rules Strad used could apply just like that.

In fact if there was an optimum FF placing and size for a bass, you'd think that someone would have found it by now!

Actually that's what I love about basses. The lack of a formula.