How high is your bass?

[Joel Larsson]

I like your idea there, Brian. The day I switched focus from left to right hand, well, it was a revelation. No more eyebrows down at the nose tip or head and body turned towards the left hand to see that it was all where it should. I sounded better, too.

I am also brought up in the F -> eye school. Or F# at your ear, actually, but I'm a sitter. And as such, there is no other way than to keep the end pin as retracted as possible; otherwise I won't get around my bass. I could actually use a somewhat smaller bass, methinks...

[Calvin Marks]

There is no standardized way to play. The appropriate height of the instrument will allow you to play through its entire range without having to have your arm reaching too high to play in half position, or conversely forcing you to bend over to play closer to the bridge. There's always that unfortunate trade off when playing such a large instrument.

My best advice in finding the correct height involves the player to stand and use a mirror, a teacher helps of course. The ideal "standard" spot is being able to have your bow arm hang and play halfway between the end of the fingerboard and the bridge. If you're playing in the higher register I push my rear out a bit and let the bass fall into me, or I "hunch" over the shoulders.

This of course is subjective as it relates directly to your height. What's the point in saying, "the F in half pos. should be at your ear..." What happens if you're 6'0" tall?? or conversely 5'3" ???

Karr has the bass so high because he bows directly over the bridge...this "technique" simply does not work for playing in an orchestra.

Rule of thumb...Make the bass as high/low as it needs to be so your bow arm isn't over the fingerboard, or conversely on the bridge. Once you find that sweet spot you can fine tune the height with the relationship to left hand.

I don't know where this entire "your knuckle should hang over the bridge" business came from. When playing the bass there really are no "it has to be's". If your instrument is too high for you you're going to develop a ton of problem for your bow arm and back. Have any of you seen Tom Martin play?? He's about 5'5" and his bow arm is virtually straight in that it just hangs and plays beautifully into the string...There's no silly "knuckle over the bridge" business.


What works for a man/woman of 6'2" is not going to be the same as someone of 5'5"...You also have to take into consideration: The type of music they're playing, the size and shape of their body, and finally the size and shape of their instrument. What's the point of creating rules? The great players always adapt to what works best for their body.

The biggest factor, I think in helping you play the bass is arm length. You can have tiny hands and still find a way to play but having long arms is a BIG help. I'm 5'6" and my upper body is the length of someone of about 5'10" whereas my legs have a 28" inseem...Odd sight, I know! I may be short but I have ridiculous monkey arms which helps a ton.

Moral is...You need to find what you bring the table PHYSICALLY, and then use that to your advantage. So many times you see massive guys with long arms that don't use the muscles they have to their advantage. (This is particularly apparent when you see a guy in an orchestra with the end-pin incredibly far out, yet he/she is still bowing over the fingerboard.

Find your physical strongpoints and utilize them.

[Sam Sherry]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

Karr has the bass so high because he bows directly over the bridge...this "technique" simply does not work for playing in an orchestra.

I sure hope you're ready to talk about the detailed, long-term application of Gary's technique which allowed you to conclude that it cannot be applied by anyone in any orchestral setting.

Again, Gary's system is a technical effort to meet physiological and musical goals. As you note, there are many such systems. If you don't like one don't use it. Beyond that, perhaps an open mind is in order (to say nothing of an open ear).

Gary's bass is high enough so that he can reach the bridge. Gary doesn't bow at the bridge all day and night. Anybody who can't bow at their bridge in ergonomic comfort lacks access to the full palette of bass tones.

Gary has had hundreds of students. It's safe to say that
a) All of them play or played in orchestras;
b) Not all of them play using the strictest iteration of Gary's system; and
c) Not all of them ignore Gary's methods utterly.

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

Find your physical strongpoints and utilize them.

Find your weaknesses and improve them.
Find the techniques that will allow you play in good health in the long-term and utilize them.
Find the love in your music and let everybody see it.

Over & out.

[Calvin Marks]

Look, I've studied with Karr, so I fully understand what he's trying to achieve with his technique and posture. I've also had very detailed discussions with him and he's told me outright that he almost always bows incredibly close to the bridge because he feels that's where the clearest and most projecting tone is for solo playing. He also mentioned that his technique needs to be adapted to different settings, such as playing in an orchestra where always playing with the bass completely vertical and with the end-pin out doesn't make very much sense for playing Bruckner 9, which is true.

If you actually talk to Gary, or study with him, you'll see that he's his own biggest critic...He's also an incredibly nice man and he knows that one method is not the answer.

I also went to your website, great looking bass by the way! It seems that you gently rock the instrument inwards...Not exactly what Gary preaches, nevertheless it seems to work for you, correct?

[Joel Larsson]

I like the idea of different approaches and school.
Take bow grip for an example. There are dozens of schools available, try them out and pick your fave. Have no schools, or so-called 'rules', and you are also more clueless. I've done that; having teachers that didn't care so much about posture or had other things to teach me first, and I ended up with a physiotherapist and rubber bands when I was 18.

[Calvin Marks]

Rules are good when it comes to pretty much anything but posture. Sure, there are some guidelines that you should follow but you have to play in a way where you aren't in pain.

[Sam Sherry]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

Look, I've studied with Karr, so I fully understand what he's trying to achieve with his technique and posture.

Swell. In that case you're surely entitled to your opinion (and I'll try to edit my above post accordingly).

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

I've also had very detailed discussions with him and he's told me outright that he almost always bows incredibly close to the bridge . . . .

As noted above, a lifetime ago I was lucky enough to get to hang around with Gary for a while. Based on that experience, I'm certainly not calling you a liar but I remain doubtful that those were Gary's words or that was Gary's actual practice. But so be it -- I'm just an internet figment.

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

I also went to your website, great looking bass by the way! It seems that you gently rock the instrument inwards...Not exactly what Gary preaches, nevertheless it seems to work for you, correct?

Cal, there's not much point in discussing my technique. Trust me, I work for it not vice versa!

What can I say? When I play pizz (like in those pics) I stand up straight, my bass sometimes leans but my bass balances itself. When I bow I stand up straight, my bass stands up straight and my bass balances itself. I don't pretend to be Gary Karr -- now that would be something wouldn't it!

I remain convinced that the reason I am able to play and remain healthy, even though I'm just a part-time dubber, is that I was brought up in the ergonomics of the Karr / Tolo school. Thank you yet again, gentlemen. To each their own. Play on.

[Richard Prowse]

When I was (slightly ) younger (about 38 years ago) I studied the violin at university; not with Gary Karr because:
1) he plays the bass and
2) he's never taught at Victoria University, Down here (NZ).
Teachers always made me do things that made my left arm hurt, along with other bits of my body. My teacher at university also seemed to instill in me that serious looking old people were very good and that I sucked. A few years later I realised that pain was not good and, when I started playing bass, I resolved that I would always strive to keep my whole body relaxed. If your body's relaxed, you can reach all the notes and the bass is balanced - you've probably just about got it right. Oh, and I also later learned that music is about intuition and not necessarily about serious looking old people who always play the right notes but who have no soul.

[Brian Gencarelli]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

I don't know where this entire "your knuckle should hang over the bridge" business came from. When playing the bass there really are no "it has to be's". If your instrument is too high for you you're going to develop a ton of problem for your bow arm and back. Have any of you seen Tom Martin play?? He's about 5'5" and his bow arm is virtually straight in that it just hangs and plays beautifully into the string...There's no silly "knuckle over the bridge" business.

Calvin,

With all due respect, I am getting tired of your tone in the posts you are writing lately...

I don't know you, and you don't know me. I don't think the way I set up my students should be considered "silliness". I have former students playing in orchestras all over the world. They have attended major universities, conservatories, and been very successful. If you would actually take the time to try my "guide" for set up, you might actually find that it works.

I will maintain that the bow hand is the most important aspect of a player's position and that the left hand is secondary to the comfort and ability to reach the entire range of the area from the fingerboard to the bridge without "reaching". Hence, the "second knuckle silliness" that you call it will put the right arm of the player 99.9% of the time in the correct area. Especially in the "traditional" standing position.

If you want to speak about "non-traditional" approaches and how you have to accomodate your physical shortcomings, by all means, feel free to speak on that. It sounds like we are relatively the same build. I sit. I have tried the bent endpins, etc... but the stability I achieve on a stool can not be matched by any standing position period. That's physics and geometry.

Bottom line- If you want to compare resume's and who we have played for, studied with, etc... we can do that. That will not make me a better teacher, nor you a better poster. There is no "right" answer on how to play the bass. We do the best we can. I was giving my perspective to a poster about how I set up bass students. Plain and simple. You chose to use derogatory language for a legitimate approach. Professionalism is a very valuable skill in this business.

Brian

[Calvin Marks]

Look, if you want to talk with me. Take it to PM, where I could discuss this with you civilly. Otherwise, I don't want to discuss this matter any further.

Regards,

Calvin

[Brian Gencarelli]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

Look, if you want to talk with me. Take it to PM, where I could discuss this with you civilly. Otherwise, I don't want to discuss this matter any further.

Regards,

Calvin

Actually, I just wanted to state these points for the record as anyone can see our posts.

1) I would just like to acknowledge that there is no "one way" to teach the double bass. (Many of your points in your post are valid.)

2) To dismiss someone's methods as "silliness" is unprofessional and inappropriate.

That is all.
BG