"Cornerless Italian & Spanish Basses"

[Ken McKay]

That may be true but I find it hard to believe that there is not a system for developing "italian arching" regardless of the size of the instrument. I am at a disadvantage as I have seen very few italian basses in person let alone up close enough to measure the arching. I think there were systems and secret information that were used in design of stringed instruments though that is not easy to understand in this day and age. Why would there be such a distinction between classican Italian violins and not be carried over to basses? And what explains why Italians sound good then if it is not design proportions?

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

That may be true but I find it hard to believe that there is not a system for developing "italian arching" regardless of the size of the instrument. I am at a disadvantage as I have seen very few italian basses in person let alone up close enough to measure the arching. I think there were systems and secret information that were used in design of stringed instruments though that is not easy to understand in this day and age. Why would there be such a distinction between classican Italian violins and not be carried over to basses? And what explains why Italians sound good then if it is not design proportions?

Thought provoking indeed. I've seen a couple of different theories on how the arch was developed, but neither source offered much in "proof" and admitted that. There were various mechanical methods using rolling drawing aids. My own theory is that the arch needs to be a sine wave section. Intuitively it seems like a deep recurve would aid in resonance.

Thanks for your explanation on the German personality of the arching.

[Ken McKay]

Probably a compass was used to develop the curves and recurves of these old basses and de gambas. Some old de gamba instruments have no recurve at all while the violin shaped instruments do. And there is a difference in tone but some de gambas were converted to cellos and basses.

I am really just collecting info on plate arching but will keep you posted. there seems to be a method that is emerging in my mind that was common to classical Italian makers. I am no expert and don't have a bunch of old italian basses to study, so take that for what it for what it is worth. I will write more as I get info.

[Matthew Tucker]

Ken M here are a few more shots from Elgars book since you don't have it any more. The "Lemur" bass and a nice cornerless attributed to Giovanni Dodi, Modena 1853.

Its interesting to see the inside; the linings are kerfed like a geetar. And check the size of the neck block!

Hey I just noticed that the "Dodi" looks a bit like the "Testore" in that little pic on your site. Could it be the same bass taken from a different angle??? That lower bout shape looks almost identical. The neck block area looks a bit different - it could just be the camera angle ... or p'raps its been cut down ... do you have a better colour picture??

[Ken McKay]

Thanks Matthew.

I knew I should have used kerfed linings, it would have been easier, I almost did. That upper block is massive.

The bass attributed to Testore on my site looks a little different than that Dodi. Have a look side by side. http://www.upnorthstrings.com/cornerlessbasspage4.html

I don't have a bigger photo of the Testore, wish I did.

I like that Dodi, especially the bold arching.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Ken M here are a few more shots from Elgars book since you don't have it any more. The "Lemur" bass and a nice cornerless attributed to Giovanni Dodi, Modena 1853.

Its interesting to see the inside; the linings are kerfed like a geetar. And check the size of the neck block!

Hey I just noticed that the "Dodi" looks a bit like the "Testore" in that little pic on your site. Could it be the same bass taken from a different angle??? That lower bout shape looks almost identical. The neck block area looks a bit different - it could just be the camera angle ... or p'raps its been cut down ... do you have a better colour picture??

At this time I doubt that the Cornerless Basses we have looked at were made by either Testore, Ruggeri or even Storioni. The work of these Basses look nothing like their 'known' work so attributing it to them may be a bit careless or a dream at best.

The Elgar Storioni in the Milan Museum I was told is NOT a Storioni. This has caused many people to use this name for almost anything Italian with the Guitar shape.

Also in the Elgar book are three 19th century makers known for Guitar shaped Basses. These are Dodi, Boccaccini, and Baldentoni. None of them from Cremona or Milan. Many Spanish Basses are of Guitar shape as well but again, mainly from the 19th century.

I will be taking my Bass down to the Kimmel Center to be photographed and looked over by Duane Rosengard sometime next month. I would just as likely assume that Boccaccini made my Bass if not a great Spaniard maker sometime in the early 19th century as I would believe the attribution to Storioni by the previous owner. I listed it like that mainly in respect for the widow of Riccardi as a memorial type thing as that is what the Bass was mainly called. In other circles it is known as 'The Riccardi Bass' with no other attribution.

I have played only two other Basses I can recall with the type of sound that my Bass has. One is an attributed Seraphin and the other attributed to Maggini, both large Violin cornered Basses. What ever my Bass is, the maker is one of great skill in both workmanship and tone as far as this Bass goes. Having played all three Basses mentioned above, I prefer both the playability and tone of my Bass. If it had been of Violin shape, It would have been priced up there with the other two Basses and out of my reach. Lucky me!..lol

[Matthew Tucker]

Where was the photo of the "testore" from?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Matthew Tucker

Where was the photo of the "testore" from?

From the String Emporium website, upper right corner. I recall him referring to that as his 'Moccha' (ala chocolate) name. I don't recall it ever being referred to as a Testore Bass. Testore is another name attached to old Italian Basses that are crude and usual or for lack of another name to call it by.

[Ken Smith]

Has any one ever seen Ermanno Ferrari with his Cornerless Bass or have some pictures to share with us? I have been told in a copy of a letter that he bought a Bass by Spanish maker J.Guillami from Gary Karr some years ago.

All I have found so far on the web is this; http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/cd/ferrari/ferrari.html

[Ken McKay]

Ken,

Good story!
Did you notice the string length being a problem as compared to your others. Do you think the string length has anything to do with it's attack? Are you still planning to make it shorter?

My cornerless bass project is in plastic wrap while I set up 60 violins for local students. I will get back at it after the busy season.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Ken McKay

Ken,

Good story!
Did you notice the string length being a problem as compared to your others. Do you think the string length has anything to do with it's attack? Are you still planning to make it shorter?

My cornerless bass project is in plastic wrap while I set up 60 violins for local students. I will get back at it after the busy season.

Yes, I still have that plan in my head. This is an expensive Bass. I have to make sure it is playable for the average Orchestra pro should I decide to sell it down the road.

I have used a small piece of wood under the strings to assimilate a shorter string length and see how it might affect the sound. The most noticeable difference was the left hand stretch. The tone didn't seem to change all that much. Slightly tighter if anything. The organ like bottom is 2x the thickness I am used to so loosing a little of that and adding some punch would be an acceptable trade-off.

I think it should be made to a 42" length if not a hair shorter.

[Jonathan Stefaniak]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Has any one ever seen Ermanno Ferrari with his Cornerless Bass or have some pictures to share with us? I have been told in a copy of a letter that he bought a Bass by Spanish maker J.Guillami from Gary Karr some years ago.

All I have found so far on the web is this; http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/cd/ferrari/ferrari.html

Hi there,

I thought I'd share that I recently bought this Guillami at Thomas Martin's shop.
This was the same 1767 Joan Guillami bass that Anton Torello used throughout his career for solo playing.

I was wondering if anyone has and photos of Gary Karr actually playing it.

While the link lasts:
http://www.thomasmartin.co.uk/instru.../joan-guillami

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jonathan Stefaniak

Hi there,

I thought I'd share that I recently bought this Guillami at Thomas Martin's shop.
This was the same 1767 Joan Guillami bass that Anton Torello used throughout his career for solo playing.

I was wondering if anyone has and photos of Gary Karr actually playing it.

While the link lasts:
http://www.thomasmartin.co.uk/instru.../joan-guillami

Why not just ask Gary Karr?