A sort of Ken Burns question

[David Powell]

Thank you so much for the great answers! That is just what I wanted to hear, really;- that it is how you approach the tune and not the tune. BTW, Ken, I never knew that about Green Dolphin Street and I must have a dozen Jazz recordings of that tune. I have Greensleeves by Coleman Hawkins and also by Coltrane. Of course it is one of my favorite tunes whether it is in the traditional English waltzy folk style or Coltrane's style. And that really is consistent with your advice on Moon River, Ken. My guitarist suggested we put it into 4 so, I guess he is thinking along the lines you suggest. We did it in 3 at that party because we figured that was what the client preferred. It worked OK, but it wasn't quite our vibe. I really do love that tune also though. No one else wants to do it again, but I'm leaning toward working it out in 4 with the guitarist and seeing if we can bring it back at least as an instrumental. On a good day Johnny Mercer and Mancini can sure make a memorable tune.

[Robert Palmer]

What is 'jazz'? Well, it is a word definately! But, like the word 'book' it tells you very little about its content. There are several commentators (Marsalis and Crouch, for example) who are presented, by the media' as if they have a monopoly on the definition of the word 'jazz'. I hear words like 'Swing' and 'the Blues' but, whilst I accept the credibility of the arguments, don't have to look very far to find something that is 'jazz' that doesn't swing or contain any blue notes. I guess that any time anyone tries to draw a line around what jazz is, someone immediately steps over it. Does it Swing? Define swing and I'll tell you!! I agree it is in the performance of the piece but that is still a bit amorphus, isn't it?

Trad Jazz, Classic Jazz, Modern Jazz, Progressive Jazz, Orchestral Jazz, Jazz Funk, Jazz Rock, Acid Jazz, Free Jazz - the list is endless. Who decides what is and what isn't 'jazz'. Bottom line is, you do. As do I, as does Paul Warburton and Ken Smith and...... you get my point. There are 1000s of players the world over who think you can't play jazz on an electric bass! Tell that to Steve Swallow!

If you go and a listen to every cd ever discussed in Downbeat, Jazziz, Jazz Journal, Jazzwise etc then, in about 10 years, you will have your very own definition of what jazz is and then we can all disagree with you . In the meantime, enjoy the journey

[Brian Glassman]

This thread reminds me of an old children's LP I heard a long time ago. It was made by Bob Keashan otherwise known as Captain Kangaroo who had a famous kid's show that ran for years from the late 50's well into the 60's and beyond. On it he is trying to explain what Jazz music is to some young kids w/ the help of a great Jazz combo that goes thru lots of styles. They take a tune like 'Take Me Out To The Ballgame' or something else just as well known and "un-Jazzy" and play it in various Jazz styles from Trad Dixieland up thru Swing and modern Jazz.
But the quote that stands out is when the kid has an epiphany of understanding and says, "You mean Jazz is a certain of way of playing any kind of music at all". I think that kinda sums it up.

BG

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Brian Glassman

This thread reminds me of an old children's LP I heard a long time ago. It was made by Bob Keashan otherwise known as Captain Kangaroo who had a famous kid's show that ran for years from the late 50's well into the 60's and beyond. On it he is trying to explain what Jazz music is to some young kids w/ the help of a great Jazz combo that goes thru lots of styles. They take a tune like 'Take Me Out To The Ballgame' or something else just as well known and "un-Jazzy" and play it in various Jazz styles from Trad Dixieland up thru Swing and modern Jazz.
But the quote that stands out is when the kid has an epiphany of understanding and says, "You mean Jazz is a certain of way of playing any kind of music at all". I think that kinda sums it up.

BG

I mostly asked the question because when I say I'm in a group that plays jazz, people ask me what kind of jazz I'm talking about. I'm generally at a loss .... Is it swing, bebop, bop, hard bop, cool jazz, smooth jazz? From now on I'm just going to say it's good jazz.
BTW, Brian, do you remember the fellow (I think it may have been Green-jeans in costume) that would once in a while bring this huge double bass on the show. It must have been some kind of Prescott or Klotz. It was a monster! When I was a kid, I always thought that was the coolest thing.

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by David Powell

I mostly asked the question because when I say I'm in a group that plays jazz, people ask me what kind of jazz I'm talking about. I'm generally at a loss .... Is it swing, bebop, bop, hard bop, cool jazz, smooth jazz? From now on I'm just going to say it's good jazz.
BTW, Brian, do you remember the fellow (I think it may have been Green-jeans in costume) that would once in a while bring this huge double bass on the show. It must have been some kind of Prescott or Klotz. It was a monster! When I was a kid, I always thought that was the coolest thing.

Of couse we know SMOOTH JAZZ isn't JAZZ...don't we??

[Richard Prowse]

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

Of couse we know SMOOTH JAZZ isn't JAZZ...don't we??

Well, is smooth sand paper still sandpaper.
Must toilet paper be rough or is smooth more comforting?
It's a bit like night and day really.

'Night and day,
You are the one...'

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by Richard Prowse

Well, is smooth sand paper still sandpaper.
Must toilet paper be rough or is smooth more comforting?
It's a bit like night and day really.

'Night and day,
You are the one...'

Oranges and apples...

[David Powell]

Originally Posted by Paul Warburton

Of couse we know SMOOTH JAZZ isn't JAZZ...don't we??

This is getting to some more of what I was asking. I have subbed in a "smooth jazz" trio. Some of that list did overlap with what we do in the 5th Sundays quartet, but the arrangements are different. 5th Sundays plays a little more like Tom Waits (loose, down tempo, and on the darker side). That smooth trio did Summertime as well as Smooth Operator and also Ain't Misbehavin' but the titles don't exactly give you the delivery. So I'm thinking when I hear Dave Bass do Roxanne by the Police, this is more like Coltrane's Greensleeves or Favorite Things. But beat wise, tempo wise, and general feel, what makes something Swing, Bop, Hard Bop, etc. Is there any way to generalize the differences? For instance when you described "When I play two beat I try to sound like Percy Heath...." I have something with Percy Heath I immediately pulled out to listen to so I could hear what you mean. Can you give me some more examples?

I think I know "latin", but Gene Cherico plays it different than Tommy Williams for instance on "Quiet Nights". In two recordings I have both with Stan Getz and Astrud Gilberto, Williams syncopates it a bit but Cherico plays straight on the down beats and is more subtle with the harmonics in the line not always using the tonic, which gives is somehow a different support of the melody line. I transcribed one verse of the Cherico line because I really liked the way it was different. William sounds more like what I hear as straight "latin". Feedback, please?

[Paul Warburton]

Originally Posted by David Powell

This is getting to some more of what I was asking. I have subbed in a "smooth jazz" trio. Some of that list did overlap with what we do in the 5th Sundays quartet, but the arrangements are different. 5th Sundays plays a little more like Tom Waits (loose, down tempo, and on the darker side). That smooth trio did Summertime as well as Smooth Operator and also Ain't Misbehavin' but the titles don't exactly give you the delivery. So I'm thinking when I hear Dave Bass do Roxanne by the Police, this is more like Coltrane's Greensleeves or Favorite Things. But beat wise, tempo wise, and general feel, what makes something Swing, Bop, Hard Bop, etc. Is there any way to generalize the differences? For instance when you described "When I play two beat I try to sound like Percy Heath...." I have something with Percy Heath I immediately pulled out to listen to so I could hear what you mean. Can you give me some more examples?

I think I know "latin", but Gene Cherico plays it different than Tommy Williams for instance on "Quiet Nights". In two recordings I have both with Stan Getz and Astrud Gilberto, Williams syncopates it a bit but Cherico plays straight on the down beats and is more subtle with the harmonics in the line not always using the tonic, which gives is somehow a different support of the melody line. I transcribed one verse of the Cherico line because I really liked the way it was different. William sounds more like what I hear as straight "latin". Feedback, please?

That Percy Heath statement has to do with one thing: THE FEEL...unfortunately, as we all know, you can't teach the feel.
The Gene Cherico statement is exactly a good example. Brazilian music is ALL about FEEL....the simpler the better in terms of notes and unlike jazz, you need to pull back in terms of where you put your notes. In jazz, normally, we play a bit ahead of the quater notes to propel the music ahead and help to " lock in " the time.
And in case you weren't aware, Gene was Frank Sinatra's road bassist for years, which says a hell of alot about his feel.
A famuos Brazilian drummer friend of mine named Claudio Slon did a brazilian record with Ray Brown. It just didn't work. Ray played too ahead of the beat. He just couldn't pull back.
Normally when we play jazz in two beat, it creates tension ie....you just can't wait for the tension to release into four.
Listen to all those Oscar Peterson/Ray Brown things...it doesn't matter whether it's a trio with guitar or drums or both. They always play a couple chourus' in TWO to build the tension for when they open it up into four.
Same with Percy, you know he'll go into four eventually. That MICKEY gig I was talkin' about was just my play on Percy playin' in two all night. Percy can swing, be it in two or in 7 or what the hell! With Percy, you get meat and potatoes....with Ray, you get the gravy too because of all those fills he plays.