Where are they??

[Sked James]

well, here is an Austrian bass for sale,
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=558909

..looks like a nice bass , and at the right price. I have played quite a few good sounding German basses , but can't say i find the look of many of them attractive . They can look a bit ugly.
This one looks nice . . Those hat peg tuners just don't do it for me though.

[Sked James]

here is a couple of Neuner & Hornsteiner , at the bottom of the page here , very nice looking basses ,
http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/bass/room.html
i played one once , had a huge sound , but it was such a large bass ,it was almost impossible to play , ... i'm 5'10 '' so no shorty , but i couldn't get around on that thing . If i remember, the stop was 44 inches .

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Sked James

here is a couple of Neuner & Hornsteiner , at the bottom of the page here , very nice looking basses ,
http://www.yamamoto-bass.com/bass/room.html
i played one once , had a huge sound , but it was such a large bass ,it was almost impossible to play , ... i'm 5'10 '' so no shorty , but i couldn't get around on that thing . If i remember, the stop was 44 inches .

This one here is closer to what I am looking for but 1869 is more like the factory era of the firm N&H. They actually had that company for about 250 years so I guess the factory thing is cool. I am looking for original old Basses by Neuner, Seitz, Klotz, Stainer (if any real ones exist), Hornsteiner (if there are non-firm made basses), Baader, and any from other individual makers that made those big 4/4 full sized Basses. Some may have even been made (from what I have read) as 3-String Basses (yes, in Germany) but strung with only the Lower strings, the treble string removed so it supports the bottom of the Orchestra. Unlike the 3-string model from Italy, France, England and Spain where they removed the lower string. Making the bass 'full sized' would have been more practical for producing the lower fundamental bass notes desired.

So, keep 'em coming. May I suggest looking at Orchestras actually IN central Europe where the might be hiding there in the Bass section. From what I have read, several makers made 4/4 sized basses in Germany from the period I mentioned and mostly in Mittenwald. I just wanna see as many of them as I can find.

[Anselm Hauke]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

...Is it possible that the Central European players love them so much that they just don't give them up? ...

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

...Orchestras actually IN central Europe where the might be hiding there in the Bass section. ...

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Anselm Hauke

Ok, you silence Sir Anselm is loudly heard!

Maybe being from this region, you could tell us things one would only learn from being a German native experiencing these 'hidden treasured basses' first hand.. Can you?

[Joel Larsson]

I suppose you have already seen http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2748.htm, but anyway.
I know that some basses like that are residing around the country. I guess it is only logical to assume that they are even more frequent in Germany... got that impression when I was down there in March.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Joel Larsson

I suppose you have already seen http://www.contrabass.co.uk/2748.htm, but anyway.
I know that some basses like that are residing around the country. I guess it is only logical to assume that they are even more frequent in Germany... got that impression when I was down there in March.

I know that bass and the size is on track but that is a late bass for the period and age I am looking for. I am looking for c.1700 - c.1820 or so. Supposedly the American/Yankee maker Prescott took his ideas for his Gamba and Busetto/lower rounded corner and full sized model from one or some German basses at the time. This would be 1811-1830 or so in which some of them were first made in USA.

Also, the Hill family of London c.1760-1780 or so made basses with outer Rib linings that are thought to be of German design. So, where are the Basses that they copied this from? Not 1880 but 1780 and before. Who were the makers? The Klotz family? The elder Neuners? Who?

I would venture to say and guess this. I have an old bass possibly from this period that most believe is English but according to one professional (I shouldn't really say expert) thinks it may have been made in Mittenwald for the English market. He mentioned that the Tarr basses were made this way as well. Maybe in the white and finished off there. I pointed out the English style 3-string scroll and asked "this is German??" He replied, "they will make what you ask for!"

We know already that the later Hawkes Basses from about 1890 were contracted to Germany as well as some earlier Basses sold by Tarr (probably not all of the Tarr Basses are German). We also know that England and Germany were not only trading partners but partners in War as they joined the British troops fighting the settlers here in America that were aided by the French. These would be the Prussians I think.

In the Violin market, the English makers from the latter 1700s on thru the mid 1800s had to compete with cheaper imports of 'fiddles' coming from both Germany and France alike. We also know that model wise, the English favored the Stainer and Tirol patterns over the newer introduced Italians of which Amati was the first followed by Strad.

I have seen many 'attributed' English Basses that looked very German in design but English in flavor as well. This I guess would be either an English made German model or a German made English model? How can we tell them apart if for the most part, they are mixed in flavor?

Well, anyway my theory is this on the 'missing basses'. For one, the Germans like their homegrown original old basses. Two, playing a local bass saves them money from buying one imported from England or Italy as these are more expensive in the world market as well. As we see many many Italian & English Basses filling the Orchestras in USA and around the world the Central European Orchestras at least in part (as they too have been spotted with 'some' Italian & English basses) seem content with their own German basses.

If this Big Bass of mine is of German birth (and it was cut down a bit well over a century ago as well) then it may help to shed some light on this mystery. Mittenwald, even going back 250 years ago were 'contractors' as well as makers of their own brand. We know of mainly the 'brands' of Basses we see here that were made for the most part in the 20th century and shipped in to be labeled by the importer. It's just we havent put 2 & 2 together to see that this is and was not a new idea. It was going on for over a century before, just mainly unnoticed.

I guess with this economic and cultural favored home grown Basses the same could be said for the old Viennese as well. I have personally only seen one full sized Thir Bass in my life over here.

So, the question remains, where are all the really OLD (pre 1850) really BIG (4/4 & 5/4) German Basses from the Mittenwald School?

My next question would be when did they start making basses of this full size regularly in Germany or specifically in Mittenwald.

Funny thing, looking at my big Bass at the ISB, a German says Klotz school and the same day an Italian says Gagliano School. The English for the most part say Central or Northern England while a few have mentioned a maker or two in London. Beauty is in the eye of the beholder. Do they see just what the want to see or are their eyes just biased subconsciously?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Sked James

well, here is an Austrian bass for sale,
http://www.talkbass.com/forum/showthread.php?t=558909

..looks like a nice bass , and at the right price. I have played quite a few good sounding German basses , but can't say i find the look of many of them attractive . They can look a bit ugly.
This one looks nice . . Those hat peg tuners just don't do it for me though.

Nice bass but it looks more German than Viennese to me. The label doesn't seem to match the bass either. If it were an 1809 dated bass German or Viennese then all you would need now to answer my call "where are they?" would be to have it in a 4/4 full sized. I am looking for the really BIG ones. Basses that measure somewhere like my Big Gamba which most believe is English but not everyone.

String length alone does not determine size in my book. It is the body length mainly. So 47-48" long or so is the targeted size for the 4/4. Bridge placement with or without centering on the F-hole nicks determine the string length. Depending on where the FFs were cut into the Top would determine the intended string length along with the length of the neck itself.

Nice Bass you links us to there but please, keep looking..