The 'D' Neck issue..

[Calvin Marks]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

What's a D? Which century? To me the Neck SHOULD be one way, Eb at the heel, D with 2nd finger, period. The you can play the 4th finger across all 4 strings easily with the 1st still in place. With the modern D it's a strain especially on the E and A strings. Descending passages always makes it more noticeable climbing down from TP to reg. pos.

Mahler is played as it is played, no one way. I play D-1, pivot to E-2 and F-4 for the first 3 notes. I rarely use the 3rd finger. I find pivoting to be easier and more accurate than trying to stretch my fingers in an unnatural position. Intonation is my concern, not convenience.

You don't stretch your fingers in an unnatural way, you relax your joints and open your hand. I don't know how you can play any hard Mozart Symphony without knowing the Four Finger Technique at the heel. Also, in the Mahler Solo, I've seen most people play it (1-3-4) because audition committees don't want to hear a slide of any sort. Your hand never remains "static"...depending on your hand size or string length, your hand moves around the neck like a boxer would in the wring.

Also, I have no strain at all playing across all four strings with my thumb at the crook and my first finger on either Db, D, Eb or E

[Calvin Marks]

Ken, it sounds like the problem your having has to do with having a fairly low block height. It can be incredibly difficult to play on the E and A string if the overstand and block height is low. I don't think this has to do with an Eb or D neck...more so a hand clearance issue.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

Ken, it sounds like the problem your having has to do with having a fairly low block height. It can be incredibly difficult to play on the E and A string if the overstand and block height is low. I don't think this has to do with an Eb or D neck...more so a hand clearance issue.

It is the Heel, trust me. Eb necks are easier to play for me than Ds regardless. I know all about Blocks and Overstand. I have had more basses modified than most people have owned.

I play on many old basses and have what ever the bass has as far as blocks, necks and heels. Some can be modified and some can't. Staying at under 42" SL maximum is always a goal and sometimes limits the results.

This is another subject but thanks for the thought. Come by some day and when we play together you will see what I mean. Maybe then you might have a helpful suggestion but it has to be for the bass I am playing and not one I would design or have made.

[Ken Smith]

It's final now if it ever was. The Eb for me is the way to go. maybe it's just the Basses I have here i am judging this by but the Necks that I like playing most are Eb or close to it.

Currently I am playing 'only' my English 'Hart bass which has an Eb Neck. I had put this Bass aside do to the slightly wider shoulders but not that I've gotten a bit more used to it, going back to a smaller shouldered bass with a 'D' neck sends me right back to the Hart. It used to be the other way around but things are a changing..

By the way, on this Eb neck, with proper hand position with my Thumb opposite the 2nd finger, my 1st finger plays the 'D' while my 2nd is on the Eb.

[Pino Cazzaniga]

Well, I realize now that my necks are not D nor Eb.
As most of my clients use a 1 3 4 fingering, they may play D with the first finger and Eb with the third finger.
And I place the thumb at the heel opposite to the second finger.
Seems to be halfway...
A widening technique is also teached, to play an half tone per finger.
And, according to the score, people use mixed different fingerings.
I'm not a musician, so I can't go further, but things are still developing, so I expect different demands.
Arnold's "You can't put the wood back" is probably the right advice here.
A related issue I'm wondering about is the SL/Body Stop ratio.
The standard for cello is 1,75. For basses I found anything from 1,75 to 1,8.
I think ( I hope ) that it will be not standardized, as it's due to many variables, but I wonder about the tone and maybe the wolf tones effects, if any.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Pino Cazzaniga

Well, I realize now that my necks are not D nor Eb.
As most of my clients use a 1 3 4 fingering, they may play D with the first finger and Eb with the third finger.
And I place the thumb at the heel opposite to the second finger.
Seems to be halfway...
A widening technique is also teached, to play an half tone per finger.
And, according to the score, people use mixed different fingerings.
I'm not a musician, so I can't go further, but things are still developing, so I expect different demands.
Arnold's "You can't put the wood back" is probably the right advice here.
A related issue I'm wondering about is the SL/Body Stop ratio.
The standard for cello is 1,75. For basses I found anything from 1,75 to 1,8.
I think ( I hope ) that it will be not standardized, as it's due to many variables, but I wonder about the tone and maybe the wolf tones effects, if any.

Let me tell you that when I bought the Hart Bass, Arnold and I discussed putting another Neck in the Bass to make it under 42" and a 'D' Neck as well. The bass sat in the shop for several months while he was completing the work on my Gilkes which is actually between a 'D' and 'Eb' stop but closer to Eb.

Sometime before starting the restoration on the Hart I pulled the Bass out from the corner where it was 'parked' and felt the Neck and as I was talking with Arnold who mentioned what a beautiful piece of wood the Neck was. At that moment I said, "leave this Neck as-is", saving me a few thousand dollars on the new Graft expense.

Now, it's the most comfortable Neck I have seconded by the Gilkes. For me, the Eb works best. When I was younger (a teen) starting out playing Jazz we (the players in NY) used to play the 'F' on the A-string playing across the D and G-strings playing the C-5th and Eb to F-octave type of bass line back then known as The Boogaloo. It have a beat to it.. lol.. (:F, C Eb f, f-f C-Eb-f: .. remember?.. lol),.., Can't play that line on no 'D' neck without a stretch..

I think most of the Ampeg Baby Basses had Eb necks as well from what I remember. But with proper hand position, it was really a D where the 1st finger went. We never talked about this Eb or D thing back then or at least not that I recall. Now it's a big deal to some people.

[Ken Smith]

Well, 4 years later, the Hart with the "Eb" neck is still my favorite all time comfortable Neck heel.

I was just reading Elgar's 2nd book, "More about the Double Bass" (c. 1960's) and in the section about various items to look for when shopping for a bass he mentions the neck heel.

Now, this is England c.1960 but the playing style is from the first half+ of the 20th century. He mentions that you need to play the D comfortably with the thumb on the curve of the heel with the middle finger (2nd?) opposite the thumb and playing the D with the first finger.

Elgar is describing what I have been talking about. The regular playing position with the 2nd finger opposite the thumb (or close to it) and the first finger behind the thumb (not parallel to it) while playing the D.

Now, depending on the size of your fingers and how you play, some people refer to the modern "D" neck as an actual Db neck. Some basses I have had restored with new "D" necks were not as easy for me to play as they were before. So, I just thought I would mention that half a century ago, Elgar put this "D" neck business in writing and I have a copy of the book since High School.