Would I benefit from a new bow?

[Michael Holden]

Yes IMHO that is the one of the hardest part about handmaking a bow, the balance of the bow. An inexpensive, student model bow will fight you everyway, that's what's happening to me now.
Right now I'm getting 5 Horst John bows in the mail to try out, and looking for much better balance, and sound. I just try everything in my power to use every bow that I come in contact with, If you pick up one bow, then pick up an identical bow from the same bowmaker, it will be completely different. Some great bassists use bows that are only about $500-$1,000 just because it is perfect for them. That's why I don't agree with a lot of people (not going to mention names) who brag about their bow made from a very reputable bow maker, and paid thousands and thousands of dollars for it, and they ignore the $400 bows... when those $400 bows they ignore may be the best bow they have (n)ever used.
So be sure you don't say "okay ... I'm getting a nice bow from a decent bowmaker, it has to be good" ... you may get it and it be crap (not saying the bow will... but for your playing style it may not work).
Uptonbass.com has a bow that I want very badly. Unfortunately they don't have the option of trying the bow before purchasing. So I'm not going to purchase it just because of that fact. chances are it's a good bow... but I'm not going to fork out $2,000 for a bow I'm not 100% is going to be perfect for me.
Good luck looking for that perfect bow... I'll tell you from my recent experiance... it's a lot of work , fun work, but work none the less

[Ken Smith]

I don't know what Bows you are trying but in todays world, a $400 Bow is usually Chinese made regardless of where it is shipped from. I have contracted almost 200 Bows made by a top shop in China. These are good playing well balanced Bows of my design. Some are better than others but comparing them in sound, playability or feel they do not make it up to the likes of my Bazin, Bultitude, Lipkins or even the Eibert Bows I have not to mention the Sartory I used to own.

Good is good but great is not easy to come by. Also, not all Bows that cost thousands are great Bows either. This is where you start looking back at your $400 Bow. When you draw a Bow across the strings it vibrates like any other wood part of your Bass. This translates to the feel of the Bow. Does the Bow sit on the String itself of do you have to use hand/wrist pressure to make it work? Can you get the sound with ease or do you have to fight it a bit or more. Does it play evenly from Frog to Tip or does the sound quit after the first half of the Bow? Is the tone thinner sounding than the more expensive Bow or is it just as thick and full?

I have owned many many 'great' Bows in my life and a few expensive ones that were not so great. Unless the Bow is made with god consistent materials by a good maker (in China, Brazil or anywhere else) and with a goos design, it will be hard to find a Bow that comes close to one of the known great makers works.

Also, I find that beginner players have trouble judging a Bow because the may have already developed bad habits compensating with a bad un-balanced Bow with a weak Tip response/performance, their technique is not fully developed and the ear for judging is not yet refined. Also, what kind of Bass are you testing this with? The lower cost Basses can have their own set of problems as well making it harder to judge plus you need to have good orchestral bowing strings on the Bass as well.

The Loveri model Bows we have made for us were first tested and compared to my Lipkins Bow. At about 1/10th the price we here at the shop agreed it was scary close reaching 60-80% the sound and performance of a 5-6k cost/value Bow. I use that term 'cost/value' together because they are made now at that price and sell used around the same selling price when purchased.

At one concert last summer I brought 3 C.Loveri Bows from the first batch made. With 2 other Basses in the section than day, I came home with only one Bow, selling the other two to my section mates. Having another Professional buy your Bow on the spot speaks for itself...

[Dwight McCartney]

I'm not looking for a several thousand dollar pro bow. I just know that using my teachers bow, I didn't have to pressure the bow into the strings, just needed to move it across and it sounded good. And it was easier to hold.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by DMcCartney

I'm not looking for a several thousand dollar pro bow. I just know that using my teachers bow, I didn't have to pressure the bow into the strings, just needed to move it across and it sounded good. And it was easier to hold.

I know, but my point is that even though you can find a better Bow like the ones discussed, they do not match up to the master Bows that cost 10x the price. A workable Bow and a master Bow are two different things but not all expensive Bows are as-workable. I hope you understand my meaning here.

[Michael Holden]

I think we do understand your point, my point is the pricetag is not a good way to determine a good bow. How many times do you see "unamed german bow $3,000". I have found in my experiance that those bows are priced based on it's playing capabilities. Now the owner of that string shop is the person determining the price. Ken, you are quite the experianced bass player, and although I have never heard you, I am going to assume you are a good player. If you picked up that bow, after owning a sartory, and your lipkins bows; you may have said "okay that bow is $800"
It is all relative. In my personal experiance I have tried 3 german bows (french frog, origin in Germany) and I have also tried 2 Marco Raposo bows... One of the Raposo Bows KILLED the German bows. The other Raposo was good but not great. I also think the Brazilian bowmakers do not get the credit they deserve. They charge must less for more bow. Everybody I've been talking to says that is due to the fact they don't have to import their wood, that they just take it from their plantations... I don't buy that just because every Raposo bow I have tried is definitly just as capable and playable has the $2k bows I have tried, The raposo bows are going for $1k. I don't see getting rid of the "importing costs" of importing the wood cutting the cost of the bow in half.
I'm not comparing these to Sartory or Lipkins bows... but I am comparing these to MANY bows out there in the $2k price range.

[Ken Smith]

That is fairly an open market up to 2-3k I must admit. I have two Bows made in NY by Peter Eibert. He is German and although he made me a Sartory model as the second Bow, still I can see his German styling throughout. I bought the first one from him a year or so earlier and although he asked for less as it was an older Bow, the stick is better and plays better too.

Prices are sometimes parallel to the makers economy and sometimes it's what the market will bare. In the case of Lipkins and Fuchs being two of the best, they can command their price whereas makers of less repute may only collect 50-75% of the price of the top makers prices regardless of how good they are.

Also, makers that are not as good as the Top may also make Bows that don't perform any better than a good grade Chinese Bow but still charge 2-3k or more for their efforts.

Some Bows are beautifully made but just don't work so well while some ugly ducklings sound sweet as pie but need a blind eye to look at...lol

[Michael Holden]

Yea I am looking forward to these Horst John bows... from the pictures that I can see the heel of the frog is a sharp corner, I've never used a bow without it being rounded on the heel of the frog. But after using the Raposo bows I am VERY surprised in the brazilian bowmakers. so I'm open to trying new things

[Ken Smith]

I would nice to have all these Bows in one room to compare and judge their values and consistencies from bow to bow within each brand/maker.

[Michael Holden]

I agree, and I think that's where 90% of the debate comes from when it comes to bows. If you take one bow and play it on one bass, it could some great... take the same bow and put it on a different bass, and it sounds like crap. Now take the same combination, put it in a different bass player's hands and it will sound 100% different, that is my point. Ken, if you were to give me a sartory bow, and a $20k bass. I'd sound like me, now if you gave the principle bassist in the NY Philharmonic, a palentino and a $50 chinese bow... he's sound completely better then me. There are way too many factors to say "This bow is better" or "this bass is better" .. it's whatever works for the individual musician.
I don't mean to beat the proverbial dead horse... but isn't Edgar Meyer's bow a cheapo? I don't know about you.. but I think he's a decent bassist...
and I hate to start another debate, but I also think the hair on the bow plays a larger part then most musicians admit to.