Would I benefit from a new bow?

[Ken Smith]

I would nice to have all these Bows in one room to compare and judge their values and consistencies from bow to bow within each brand/maker.

[Michael Holden]

I agree, and I think that's where 90% of the debate comes from when it comes to bows. If you take one bow and play it on one bass, it could some great... take the same bow and put it on a different bass, and it sounds like crap. Now take the same combination, put it in a different bass player's hands and it will sound 100% different, that is my point. Ken, if you were to give me a sartory bow, and a $20k bass. I'd sound like me, now if you gave the principle bassist in the NY Philharmonic, a palentino and a $50 chinese bow... he's sound completely better then me. There are way too many factors to say "This bow is better" or "this bass is better" .. it's whatever works for the individual musician.
I don't mean to beat the proverbial dead horse... but isn't Edgar Meyer's bow a cheapo? I don't know about you.. but I think he's a decent bassist...
and I hate to start another debate, but I also think the hair on the bow plays a larger part then most musicians admit to.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Michael Holden

I agree, and I think that's where 90% of the debate comes from when it comes to bows. If you take one bow and play it on one bass, it could some great... take the same bow and put it on a different bass, and it sounds like crap. Now take the same combination, put it in a different bass player's hands and it will sound 100% different, that is my point. Ken, if you were to give me a sartory bow, and a $20k bass. I'd sound like me, now if you gave the principle bassist in the NY Philharmonic, a palentino and a $50 chinese bow... he's sound completely better then me. There are way too many factors to say "This bow is better" or "this bass is better" .. it's whatever works for the individual musician.
I don't mean to beat the proverbial dead horse... but isn't Edgar Meyer's bow a cheapo? I don't know about you.. but I think he's a decent bassist...
and I hate to start another debate, but I also think the hair on the bow plays a larger part then most musicians admit to.

I do not agree with you. A good sounding Bass or Bow is just that. Sure a better player can make a bass sound better but a lesser player sounds better with better equipment and will develop better technique as well. I don't know where you get your ides from but in my world sound is sound. On the Hair, yes it makes a difference but a Bow can sound its best only with good hair. White or Black sounds different but matching hair as a bit like matching strings but with less choices.

On Edgar's Bow costing $10? Where and when did he buy it? I heard that Bob Riccardi (former owner of my Cornerless Bass for 40 years who died a few months ago) once found a Sartory Bass Bow at a flea market for a few bucks as well? Does that make his Bow a $10 Bow too? What a Bow costs and what a Bow IS is not always the same thing.

I paid $400 for my Sartory! Does that make it a $400 Bow? Now it's 10-15k. The previous one sold in NY b4 mine was $200 a few years earlier.

$5-$20 was the going rate for German Shop Bows in the mid to late '60s into the '70s. These included the Bows from Juzek/Metropolitan Music. My Roche Bow was $60. My Vitale was $75. It broke at the Screw end a few years later, was fixed and sold a few years later. Repaired, I sold it for $125 to a VERY famous Bass player who wasn't famous then. All this before 1972 in case you are wondering.

I am sure that if Edgar used a Sartory or Bultitude, he and his Bass would sound better. I too can use a cheapo Bow on my Basses but that doesn't mean it's the best I can sound. I can also play a piece of crap Bass and make it sound but polishing a turd is not my way of making music.

Bottom line, get the best you can afford and keep it well repaired. Don't get caught up on who can make what piece of junk sound better than a beginner can make it sound. Where does that theory get you?

[Michael Holden]

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. A good bass player is not one that can take $100,000 worth of instrument and make it sound great. It's a person who can take any instrument and make it sound great. I agree with you, the key is to buy the best gear you can afford and keep it in good repair. But I do disagree with your previous statement.
I heard a great statement on another bass forum. "The bass is the canvas and the bow is the brush... you decide which is more important." Well give a 3 yr old a $10k canvas... then a $3,000 brush... let's see him do his best, then go to walmart.. by a $5 brush and $7 paint sketch book, and give it to DaVinci... let's see who's painting you'd rather have.
Now back to my point, if daVinci felt better painting with a $5 brush, would he be less of an artist? what if the expensive brush didn't "fit" him as well as the cheap one... would he not have been the artist that he was? Mr. Smith I don't know you, so I cannot point fingers, but I know string players who when shopping for a bow, will not touch a bow under $3,000. I disagree with their idea of bow quality, because they may like a $1,000 bow better then their current $3k... My opinion is... if your budget is $3k... try every bow from $600 - $3k that you can... the lesser priced ones may surprise you.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Michael Holden

I guess we are going to have to agree to disagree. A good bass player is not one that can take $100,000 worth of instrument and make it sound great. It's a person who can take any instrument and make it sound great. I agree with you, the key is to buy the best gear you can afford and keep it in good repair. But I do disagree with your previous statement.
I heard a great statement on another bass forum. "The bass is the canvas and the bow is the brush... you decide which is more important." Well give a 3 yr old a $10k canvas... then a $3,000 brush... let's see him do his best, then go to walmart.. by a $5 brush and $7 paint sketch book, and give it to DaVinci... let's see who's painting you'd rather have.
Now back to my point, if daVinci felt better painting with a $5 brush, would he be less of an artist? what if the expensive brush didn't "fit" him as well as the cheap one... would he not have been the artist that he was? Mr. Smith I don't know you, so I cannot point fingers, but I know string players who when shopping for a bow, will not touch a bow under $3,000. I disagree with their idea of bow quality, because they may like a $1,000 bow better then their current $3k... My opinion is... if your budget is $3k... try every bow from $600 - $3k that you can... the lesser priced ones may surprise you.

Well, I don't know you either except your 23 and playing only a short time. I have played for over 40 years and know the Bass and the Bass business better than most.

Dealers will price Bows according to name and quality. A good Bow as good as a 3k Bow will not sell for $600, sry. If it's good, it will be priced for what the maker will bare. If it's a name maker, it will be priced according to the maker and quality combined. Sartory can go from 10-15k on average. That will vary in a single Shop by the individual Bow but different Shops in different parts of the world may sell them higher or lower. Some dealers ship Instruments and Bows to other dealers where they will being more money. This is called networking. Did you know that networking exists in this business too?

The Bultitude Bow I sold was on consignment with me from a London Shop. I sold the Bow for them as I could sell it here and they couldn't sell it there at the time.

I don't know what you are getting at with your brush thing but better Basses are just that and will sound better no mater who plays them and the same goes for Bows. Yes, the better player can get more out of it but why would he play on a lesser instrument?

Find me a Bow exactly like the one Edgar has and get it for $10. I dare you! His claim of using a $10 Bow is more of a figure of speech as even the cheapest Chinese Bows that sell for $50-$100 are barely usable by any Pro player. His Bow is more like an older German stick he picked up somewhere at a bargain price a long time ago. That doesn't make it a $10 Bow because he got it for $10.

If I find and English Bass for 5k broken and fix it and can get 60k for it, does that make it a 5k Bass if I haven't yet sold it? What you pay is not necessarily the value of what you have.

I just sold a $20 Prescott for almost 50k? Do you believe me? In 1820, it sold new for $20. I have the Prescott records from 1808-1828 with all his sales figures so I know this. But, 186 years later, the price just happens to be a little higher? Does that mean I played in a Symphony with a $20 Bass because that's what it first cost?

Just because a good player can make crap sound better than a beginner can, don't think that's what they would rather play. Also, don't think a better player sounds the same on a 100K as he does on a cheap plywood Bass either.

There is a reason why people pay the prices they do for good Basses and Bows. One day, you will understand this further than just the written word.

[Michael Holden]

Mr. Smith I do appreciate your experiance, and I also appreciate how "respected" you are in the industry. I just completely disagree with you. I do agree that there are better bows out there... I do agree there are better basses, I also agree that bows in the $3k range are better then the bows in the $800 range.
But I disagree that the $3k bows are best for EVERYBODY. I have been playing classical bass for a short period of time.. but i've play violin since I was 4. So I do have some experiance in the matter. My violin teacher (of 6 years) Was a professional musician. She had a bow, which I don't remember the exact price.. but it was under $1,000. And she impressed upon me, that bows aren't judged by it's price tag. She owned a bow that was much more expensive then her main $1k bow. She said a bow is all about feel. She said she bought the very expensive bows because it helped with one aspect of her playing, but her main bow was the cheaper one. It felt better to her and was easier for her to play.
So Mr. Smith you could be the greatest bass player in the world, but you will never have me agree that any bow over $3k is good for everybody.

[Ken Smith]

Michael, a Violin does not need the pull strength like a Bass does for Bowing.

Just imagine a Bass in your left hand playing like butter with all the smoothness, depth and power without any effort and then imagine a Bow on that Bass that bows like butter from Frog to Tip effortlessly never having to use any wrist pressure to play the note unless dynamics are needed. The Bow just dances on the String any which way you want it to as if you almost have magic technique that you never had before. After 2 or 3 hours of playing, you hands feel fine as if all you did was type a Post on this Forum.

That's what it's like to play a Great Bass and Bow. I do it every day and believe me, "I" can tell the difference even if some others can't.

Experience doesn't come in a bottle. Maybe in 5, 10 or even 20 years you will understand what I am talking about from actually experiencing this rather than just reading or arguing about it.