Gut strings Rock!!

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Calvin Marks

I agree that there is a special sound and feel of playing on real gut strings. I'm talking about plain gut BTW not wound gut like Eudoxa or Oliv. If you're playing jazz then I couldn't imagine playing on anything but gut but for orchestral playing plain gut just doesn't work.

Really? If you played Jazz and had to push a Band or Big Band or played solos you would see soon why Ray Brown, Milt Hinton, Sam Jones and just about every player I have known CHANGED to Steels..

Audibly, the Guts are too slow and they make you play harder to hear yourself. I see no need at all to play guts at all unless you are playing period music. Even then, any good old bass with bowing steels will sound just about as good in my opinion.

I have played Vivaldi, Bach, Hayden and Mozart concerts mainly with one Bass and two Cellos (Chamber-like) and they loved my sound. Bowing Steels all the way with an old English or Italian bass. No one mentioned after first hearing me that I needed Gut, NO one!

Is that Period enough or we need to go earlier?

Maybe you Gut seekers just need an Older bass, you think?

[Phil Maneri]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Maybe you Gut seekers just need an Older bass, you think?

Hah! That's funny. And probably true I think. That's what I needed.

[Nathan Parker]

Well, in contrast to the latest consensus that has been formed, gut is where it's at for me.

Ken was generous enough to trade me his broken in set of Carlos Henriquez Pirastro Chorda strings for a broken in set of Spirocores. I don't know if I will ever go back. I've switched to the regular Chorda's now, but might go back to the C.H. diameters, as that regular Chorda E string is quite the monster. Great sound, but it ain't easy to play.

The things I really enjoy about gut strings is the tone and the feel. The sound is so unique and it seems to be impossible to replicate. It is very warm and full to my ears, but it also has a blunt and un-complex quality that I like very much. It's almost as if the bass is more akin to a timpani than a violin or cello. And, the feel and tension are quite the delight. Pizzicato, there seems to be a larger palate of tonal color, which can be changed by variations in right hand position and pulling technique. Lastly, the lower tension allows me to raise the string height and still play without pain, which means more volume for me. I have taken to playing without an amp lately, so that is definitely a help.

I know there are downsides to the gut strings, but for me and my needs, the pros outweigh the cons.

[Ken Smith]

I think in some styles and for some players they work best. I had a set of Labella gut in a bass a few years ago and they were fun for pizz on the bass I had them on but after one Orchestra rehearsal they came off. They just didn't blend well.

I like all things bass to be smooth. Gut to me under my ear just isn't!

[Richard Prowse]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I like all things bass to be smooth. Gut to me under my ear just isn't!

Is that just a gut feeling Ken?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Richard Prowse

Is that just a gut feeling Ken?

No, it's in the ear!

[Calvin Marks]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I have played Vivaldi, Bach, Hayden and Mozart concerts mainly with one Bass and two Cellos (Chamber-like) and they loved my sound. Bowing Steels all the way with an old English or Italian bass. No one mentioned after first hearing me that I needed Gut, NO one!
?

Ken, there's a difference between playing Baroque and Classical music in a modern settings versus in a period setting - completely different context. There's no such thing as period music without gut strings, just like there's no such thing as modern orchestral music without metal strings (I consider Olivs and Eudoxa to be metal strings). Metal isn't better than Gut, they're just different and one may not be appropriate for certain types of music...If you showed up to a TRUE period gig with metal strings you'd be asked to leave.

[Calvin Marks]

I should also mention that gut is way easier on the left hand as they're much lower in tension and softer so you don't have to press down as hard.

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Charles Stark

I should also mention that gut is way easier on the left hand as they're much lower in tension and softer so you don't have to press down as hard.

Well I did play on Guts all thru High school but what do I know?

Aside from all this 'purity' talk, if you are trying to play bass professionally today for the most part, Gut's will not get you there. Even with a better bass, you need the best strings to match that your Bass actually likes.

Just my opinion ..

[Calvin Marks]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Well I did play on Guts all thru High school but what do I know?

Aside from all this 'purity' talk, if you are trying to play bass professionally today for the most part, Gut's will not get you there. Even with a better bass, you need the best strings to match that your Bass actually likes.

Just my opinion ..

Guts in a modern orchestra today? No, that will not work and would be silly to attempt. Though, there are many orchestral players that use wrapped guts like Olivs or Eudoxas...These don't sound anything like "real" gut but they have a really nice sound.

I do a lot of playing with baroque groups so I have several sets of oiled up sheep gut strings to put on...I also play with a lot of modern groups so I have a lot of metal strings...Different music, different context.

[Joel Larsson]

So what we REALLY need is two instruments! One for your regular gigs, and one that will make those hardcore baroque people call you up. You know, the ones sneering at anything newer than C.P.E. Bach, and at anything spun other than possibly the E string. Period music is becoming all the rage, it seems, and those baroque guys simply won't call you if you don't have the right gear. Then, it can be a really crappy bass, and sound sh1t when you play—at least you'll be playing on Gut, and they'll be satisfied. Maybe you can even purchase the cheapt 'baroque' bow you can find, and they'll be all fired up.
(Sometimes, I get the feeling that what these guys really do want to hear is a bit of rock'n'roll attitude, and they couldn't care less about the tonal quality. I kind of sympathize with that. )

Anyways, that's what it's like in Scandinavia. You go all-in, or you're not in. Of course, the orchestras still do classical symphonies and the occasional Baroque mass, and maybe the leader will try to impose some supposedly old style phrasing on the reluctant musicians brought up in the 20th century, maybe they'll even go as far as to change the E string of the violins to gut... but here we're talking project or freelance type ensembles specialized in period playing, and—as a freelancer—any gig is a gig you don't want to miss, so you better stand and deliver.

Edit: Oops, Calvin managed to sneak in a reply while I was writing, basically saying the same thing but with fewer words... I'l learn to express myself more concisely, and next it'll be me who posts first!!

[Calvin Marks]

Originally Posted by Joel Larsson

So what we REALLY need is two instruments! One for your regular gigs, and one that will make those hardcore baroque people call you up. You know, the ones sneering at anything newer than C.P.E. Bach, and at anything spun other than possibly the E string. Period music is becoming all the rage, it seems, and those baroque guys simply won't call you if you don't have the right gear. Then, it can be a really crappy bass, and sound sh1t when you play—at least you'll be playing on Gut, and they'll be satisfied. Maybe you can even purchase the cheapt 'baroque' bow you can find, and they'll be all fired up.
(Sometimes, I get the feeling that what these guys really do want to hear is a bit of rock'n'roll attitude, and they couldn't care less about the tonal quality. I kind of sympathize with that. )

Anyways, that's what it's like in Scandinavia. You go all-in, or you're not in. Of course, the orchestras still do classical symphonies and the occasional Baroque mass, and maybe the leader will try to impose some supposedly old style phrasing on the reluctant musicians brought up in the 20th century, maybe they'll even go as far as to change the E string of the violins to gut... but here we're talking project or freelance type ensembles specialized in period playing, and—as a freelancer—any gig is a gig you don't want to miss, so you better stand and deliver.

Edit: Oops, Calvin managed to sneak in a reply while I was writing, basically saying the same thing but with fewer words... I'l learn to express myself more concisely, and next it'll be me who posts first!!

Thanks Joel, and yes I agree with you as well. Once again, I've played a ton of different kinds of gut strings - from Aquila and Dlugolecki to Gamut and Pirastro and have used them from opera pit playing, chamber music to actual period music on period instruments.

Gut strings can make a "cheap" bass sound A LOT better...you don't need a 100k bass to sound great or get into an orchestra. If you practice and have talent then the instrument is second (the way it should be).

[Richard Prowse]

Originally Posted by Charles Stark

Gut strings can make a "cheap" bass sound A LOT better...you don't need a 100k bass to sound great or get into an orchestra. If you practice and have talent then the instrument is second (the way it should be).

Are you saying that gut strings will improve the sound of my plywood?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Charles Stark

Ken, there's a difference between playing Baroque and Classical music in a modern settings versus in a period setting - completely different context. There's no such thing as period music without gut strings, just like there's no such thing as modern orchestral music without metal strings (I consider Olivs and Eudoxa to be metal strings). Metal isn't better than Gut, they're just different and one may not be appropriate for certain types of music...If you showed up to a TRUE period gig with metal strings you'd be asked to leave.

Thank's for the lesson old timer..

[Calvin Marks]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Thank's for the lesson old timer..

Playing experience has nothing to do with age - wisdom does, and that is why I'm not wise yet! I speak zee truth!

I'm not suggesting we all try and replicate the same sound as Domenico Dragonetti, we can leave that up to John Feeney .

But in all seriousness, gut strings do "rock", and they're definitely under appreciated. Unfortunately I think their high price is the biggest deterrent for most serious players.

[Mark Stefaniw]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Really? If you played Jazz and had to push a Band or Big Band or played solos you would see soon why Ray Brown, Milt Hinton, Sam Jones and just about every player I have known CHANGED to Steels..

Audibly, the Guts are too slow and they make you play harder to hear yourself. I see no need at all to play guts at all unless you are playing period music. Even then, any good old bass with bowing steels will sound just about as good in my opinion.

I have played Vivaldi, Bach, Hayden and Mozart concerts mainly with one Bass and two Cellos (Chamber-like) and they loved my sound. Bowing Steels all the way with an old English or Italian bass. No one mentioned after first hearing me that I needed Gut, NO one!

Is that Period enough or we need to go earlier?

Maybe you Gut seekers just need an Older bass, you think?

Geez -- lighten up man! No one doubts that we can play period music successfully (i.e. get by IMO) on steel strings with a tourte bow. If you are serious about studying early music, you absolutley must consider a gut setup -- that's just a fact that comes with the territory. It is magical when the entire string ensemble is on a gut setup.

Check out this (click here) beautiful period performance on Viennese tuned gut violone -- frets and all. I've always wanted to study period music on a period/replica setup like that. Can you imagine the fun tuning the viola d'amore? Closest I've gotton so far to period setup is to fiddle with Viennese tuning (A-D-F#-A) on my modern double bass with steel strings ... inspired by Edicson Ruiz's Vanhal performance setup (click here). Edicson went to London to study Viennese tuning with Chi-chi Nwanoku (click here). Chi-chi spends most of her time on a Viennese gut setup ... I am envious of her career.