"circa 1880 Czech bass"

[Arnold Schnitzer]

The flame in the back wood looks suspicious to me also. If you look at the spots where it was scraped to level cracks, the flame seems absent. This artificial flame-job was usually done on cheaper instruments. But if it sounds good, you made a nice purchase.

[Rob Thompson]

Hi, I'm the new owner of this bass. I bought it from Aaron (OP) after he had it for a while and decided not to keep it. Since I'm interested in any input on the instrument (and just learning in general about older basses) I'd like to keep this thread going.

Responses to Ken's questions/comments:
-There is little or no flame in the wood, just creative varnishing.

-My guess is that its been revarnished, maybe a long time ago. I have not spoken to my luthier about the varnish, but I've got an appointment on tuesday, so I'll ask him then. Are there any clear indicators of revarnishing that I could look for?

-There are not (to the best that I can tell) any repairs too near the soundpost or bassbar. There are no cracks even close to the bassbar and there is a single long crack about 1/2 inch to the left of the soundpost that seems nicely cleated (I looked inside with a mirror). The top is also very even, with no sinking.

-What makes it so clear that the scroll was grafted? There are some lines on the underside of the scroll that made me think so too, but how can you tell from the pic? Actually, not knowing anything about older basses or their manufacturing, I suspected that the scroll and neck were assembled together to cheapen the manufacturing....

-About the age: there is a repair sticker from 1949 (W.M. Pierce, Allentown PA) and a penciled repairs mark from Sam Reiner, North Wales, PA 1953. So I figure it's least that old. The corpus looks pretty old from the inside, but what do I know. My luthier doesn't seem to dispute the original advertiser's claim of late 1800's.

Measurements:
String length: 41 1/2"
Upper bout: 20 1/2 "
Center Bout: 14 1/2"
Lower bout: 25 1/4 "
Body length: 43"
Rib Depth 7 3/4"
Overstand 3/4"
Bridge height: 5 3/4"

What's really important to me is that it sounds good and I enjoy playing it. I'm not sure yet if it will be a good orchestra bass, but it's got a nice sound and managed to convince me to give it a chance.

My luthier has recommended a neck reset to bring up the overstand and increase the neck angle. I'm hoping this might make it sound even better, or at least make it project better, although it seems nice and loud right now. The bottom block seems stable, but it does worry me a little.

Frankly, I'm just looking for a nice sounding orchestra bass with some personality to it, and if this one doesn't work out I just hope not to LOSE too much money. I don't have any illusions of fixing the thing up and turning it around for 7k!

Anyways, any thoughts are welcome, especially on the neck reset since I'm not really sure I completely understand what that is going to do to the instrument (and it's not cheap). Thanks!

Rob

[Ken Smith]

All of my comments are from the pictures. It looks like there were repairs to both the soundpost and bassbar side. The varnish mess is an indication that those areas were worked on. If not, why was the varnish touched there? The graft is visible and I don't think they made it that way back then. Scroll/neck parts were bought from carvers. They didn't need to make it themselves.

Your bridge height is very low even if the strings are touching the fingerboard. 6" height with 5mm on the G and more as you cross the strings is a minimum and still low. This is an indication of a low neck angel and shallow neck-stand combined. This will not be cheap to improve on.

Higher bridges put more pressure on the top. More pressure means more cracks on weaker basses. Many many German basses built on the cheap were set low including many more recent made basses a well. 6.5 inches is a good guide with some bridge height. Below that it's considered low as mentioned. The neck on this bass broke out some time ago. This is evident by the back button inlay. The scratched lines going under and around the button is a dead giveaway as well. The back center must have also shrunk and split and that 3 pic checkered guitar like repair was done then as well.

Refinish is obvious when you see sanding scratches and multi-directional colors. This bass looks like more than one person has touched it as far as the finish/varnish goes.

The age can be correct or slightly later. I had a bass that was in a car accident 2 years after I bought it new. It was in the importers shop a few years but the bass was younger than me and had a neck graft early in its life. I have another new bass that the neck failed from a hidden knot/defect in the wood and in under 2 years of its make got a graft as well. Repairs are not indications of age. The bass can be one year older than the oldest repair or 50 years. Labels prove very little at times. This style bass with scratched purfling as it appears to be is on the lower end of the scale whether before or after the first war. I can't say more without seeing in person.

[Rob Thompson]

Thanks Ken, for your comments and knowledge.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

All of my comments are from the pictures. It looks like there were repairs to both the soundpost and bassbar side. The varnish mess is an indication that those areas were worked on. If not, why was the varnish touched there?

Sorry if I misunderstand, but I think the "varnish mess" you are referring to is just a trick of the shadows? I've attached a couple pics of the belly to see if that clarifies things.

Also, when you say the graft is visible, you mean in the pic of the scroll?

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Your bridge height is very low even if the strings are touching the fingerboard. 6" height with 5mm on the G and more as you cross the strings is a minimum and still low. This is an indication of a low neck angle and shallow neck-stand combined. This will not be cheap to improve on.
Higher bridges put more pressure on the top. More pressure means more cracks on weaker basses.

I know it won't be cheap (I've already gotten the estimates), but I think I'd like to do it anyway, simply because I like the sound and feel of the bass. In your experience, is there a big risk of developing structural problems on the top because of the increased angle? That, I suppose, is the only thing I'm worried about (besides paying for it).

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

The neck on this bass broke out some time ago. This is evident by the back button inlay. The scratched lines going under and around the button is a dead giveaway as well. The back center must have also shrunk and split and that 3 pic checkered guitar like repair was done then as well.

I imagined that myself; the center seam split and spread open and they just cut up the back to fix it. Like you say, it looks like the three piece backs on acoustic guitars. Is that an abnormal way of repairing that kind of problem? Also, is there any particular reason why someone would replace the wood at the heel of the neck like that? It seems like a strange repair, especially with the sloppy way the purfling is scratched in.

Thanks again.

[Ken Smith]

Please pay attention. I have a fairly good eye, not the best but better than most. This bass looks like it has wood stain on it more than violin varnish. This bass WAS re-finished or re-stained or something to that affect. Again, only a personal inspection would get me to put money on it but I am leaning that way.

The graft is where a new neck slides into the scroll. Look here at the bottom of this page for a graft in progress. The thin lines in the cheeks of the peg box above the nut half way up is the graft joint. There is a joint underneath as well.

I have no idea who is out your way qualified to do this level of work to the degree I am used to getting. Neck-to-block fit, neck pitch and neck stand as well as all square. Not a job for just anyone. If done wrong, it will need to be corrected.

This Bass may not be worth all that it needs to be made right. Often when basses are sold, the previous owner knows all or some of this. Do you ever get rid of a perfectly good working Car? Be careful with this or any bass you step into. Good repairs are not cheap. Look for a bass with less mystery involved as far as condition and restoration costs go. If this were a much nicer bass worth over $20k, I would say go for it. In my opinion, this bass on its best day would not fetch half of that in its best condition.

[Rob Thompson]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Please pay attention. I have a fairly good eye, not the best but better than most. This bass looks like it has wood stain on it more than violin varnish. This bass WAS re-finished or re-stained or something to that affect. Again, only a personal inspection would get me to put money on it but I am leaning that way.

Don't worry, I'm paying attention. I think its refinished too. Maybe even with wood stain! But, as you can hopefully verify from the photos I posted, no repaired bassbar or soundpost cracks or irregularities in the (albeit not so good) varnish in those areas that I can see.

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

I have no idea who is out your way qualified to do this level of work to the degree I am used to getting. Neck-to-block fit, neck pitch and neck stand as well as all square. Not a job for just anyone. If done wrong, it will need to be corrected.

This Bass may not be worth all that it needs to be made right. Often when basses are sold, the previous owner knows all or some of this. Do you ever get rid of a perfectly good working Car? Be careful with this or any bass you step into. Good repairs are not cheap. Look for a bass with less mystery involved as far as condition and restoration costs go. If this were a much nicer bass worth over $20k, I would say go for it. In my opinion, this bass on its best day would not fetch half of that in its best condition.

Well, I appreciate the encouragement. If things turn out the worst possible way, then perhaps I will have learned a hard lesson!

Also, there's some good luthiers out here. Maybe not as famous as some on the east coast, but Minnesotans are humble folk. If I go through with it, I'll let you know how the neck reset turns out, so you can either 1. say "I told you so" or 2. find out about a luthier who does good work out here.

Actually, once I did get rid of a perfectly good working car! I gave it to my ex-girlfriend so she'd quit bugging me about it.

Thanks again!

[Rob Thompson]

Thought I'd update. The bass was given a very nice restoration by luthier Scott Jensen here in Minneapolis. This included a neck reset, new fingerboard, various crack repairs, repair of the old neck break damage. He did a wonderful job.

I've been using it for orchestra and chamber music for a couple months now and I couldn't be happier. The bass sounds fantastic; great projection and depth and very easy to play. So, I guess I got lucky!

Doing Beethoven 7 in about a week, so I suppose it could use an extension, but I'll make due as is for a while.