What is my bass?

[Brian Gencarelli]

Good try, but Ken can blow them up so we can see detail. I couldn't get to your pics.

I would be interested to see what they sound like side by side! Just curious, what is your neck overstand like and is it the original neck/setting. Mine is and the overstand is low.

BG

[Bill Sallee]

Originally Posted by Brian Gencarelli

Good try, but Ken can blow them up so we can see detail. I couldn't get to your pics.

I would be interested to see what they sound like side by side! Just curious, what is your neck overstand like and is it the original neck/setting. Mine is and the overstand is low.

BG

Yes the overstand is fairly low. I can't measure now because I'm having
a setup adjustment made. I will have it back tommorrow.

If you are ever in the Dallas area you can certainly come play it.

[Bill Sallee]

Originally Posted by Bill Sallee

Three luthiers have looked at my bass and have offered the following opinions:
1. Italian ~1920-1940
2. German ~1920
3. French Mid 1800s
...

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

Ok, the ones that said French or Italian, stay away from. Especially the one who said French.

The one who guessed German 1920 is the only one with a clue.

Where are the pictures of the Back? Hiding something?

I don't think anyone is trying to be dishonest here. I'll name names and circumstances including everything I know so far. I am still curious about its origins but the main thing is how it plays and sounds.

Absolutely Known by direct and email contact with the previous two owners:

owner 1. luthier 1. Wayne Holmes - Who sold me the bass and told me about this forum.
He advertised on the web as Italian. His reason for calling it Italian, I presume is because he has an appraisal from Bruce Wallace which says that it of Italian workmanship or construction or somesuch. He bought it along with the rest of the tools and inventory of Bruce Wallace's shop (Pittsburgh)

Three days and 1000 miles later-

Luthier 2. Arnold Schnitzer - I went by his shop and showed him the bass.
He played Au Privave and fixed a sharp edge on the underside of the fingerboard and gave his Germanic origins opinion.

Owner 2. Bruce Wallace - I contacted him for info on the bass. He
did not defend the Italian pedigree just stating I should worry about the sound and not the history of the bass.

Early this week:

Luthier 3. David Graham - He works on lots of DFW top player's basses. He currently has the bass and is fitting a new bridge. He said it looks very much like Drew Phelps bass (confirmed by web photos from the grand ole opry and elsewhere) which was said, by someone, to be French.


Second Hand Info: according to Bruce Wallace

Owner 3. Dr. Mike Taylor (deceased) of Pittsburgh. I have tried to find info or photos on the web but not much success. I'll I can find is that he is a member of the Pittsburgh Jazz Hall of Fame and a number of people list him as a inspiration and teacher. Does anyone here know of him?

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Bill Sallee

I don't think anyone is trying to be dishonest here. I'll name names and circumstances including everything I know so far. I am still curious about its origins but the main thing is how it plays and sounds.

Absolutely Known by direct and email contact with the previous two owners:

owner 1. luthier 1. Wayne Holmes - Who sold me the bass and told me about this forum.
He advertised on the web as Italian. His reason for calling it Italian, I presume is because he has an appraisal from Bruce Wallace which says that it of Italian workmanship or construction or somesuch. He bought it along with the rest of the tools and inventory of Bruce Wallace's shop (Pittsburgh)

Three days and 1000 miles later-

Luthier 2. Arnold Schnitzer - I went by his shop and showed him the bass.
He played Au Privave and fixed a sharp edge on the underside of the fingerboard and gave his Germanic origins opinion.

Owner 2. Bruce Wallace - I contacted him for info on the bass. He
did not defend the Italian pedigree just stating I should worry about the sound and not the history of the bass.

Early this week:

Luthier 3. David Graham - He works on lots of DFW top player's basses. He currently has the bass and is fitting a new bridge. He said it looks very much like Drew Phelps bass (confirmed by web photos from the grand ole opry and elsewhere) which was said, by someone, to be French.


Second Hand Info: according to Bruce Wallace

Owner 3. Dr. Mike Taylor (deceased) of Pittsburgh. I have tried to find info or photos on the web but not much success. I'll I can find is that he is a member of the Pittsburgh Jazz Hall of Fame and a number of people list him as a inspiration and teacher. Does anyone here know of him?

First off, Wayne showed me several basses he was selling awhile back and probably this one as well. He thought, THOUGHT he had one or two Italian basses. He had only German basses of the ones he thought were Italian.

I would be glad to look at the other bass this was compared to as French as from an untrained eye, many basses look alike. It is a good possibility that if the other bass is just like this then it too is German.

On the names you mention, Arnold is the only 'full time experienced Professional bass luthier' of that group. Any Bass guy with experience can tell you that outer rib linings don't come on French Basses. If they have not learned that yet, they they are still students in the field. Actually, with regards to making ID's on old basses we are all students. Also, I am not referring to any dealer trying to up the pedigree to make more money. That is an entirely different criminal situation. The situation here is either they know or they don't know. There are a few Italian basses as well that I have seen and even owned that had outer linings. With regards to construction, the Germans were copied as well on occasion in both Italy and England. In France, they tried to look French and only copied the Italians for the most part. Another feature I have found on 3 of my personal Italian basses were Necks with Dovetail joints hidden under the Top plate but looked from the outside as if mortised in. Not one bass but 3 and from 3 different parts of Italy and 3 different periods as well. So, a dovetail joint on an Italian Bass? Sure, why not.

I too own some German basses as well, old ones like yours give or take. One is a Mittenwald bass that Jeff Bollbach just made a C-Extension for and did some repairs and set-up. I will be using this bass as my own in place of my Gilkes which I sold last year and my Martini which is in out for sale as well. The Hart is going up as well so I can make financial arrangements for my restored Italian Guitar bass and it's inspired copy. Money money money.. I need it.. lol

The others I have includes an old blockless German Bass and an old French 'style' German bass. The shoulders are way sloped like a solo bass and the Purfling runs around both the Top and Back plates. It has Rib linings mitered at the the Neck block with a strip running across. So German, it came with a coupon for wiener-schnitzel with sauerkraut. Believe it or not, this bass had papers from a big famous shop as a French bass with a matching insurance certificate. Other than the fact that is totally wrong and blind if not deceptive by the dealer that wrote these certs, they are worth nothing more than toilet paper as far as the bass goes. But for laughs, I will keep the papers and mention that despite the expert opinion of a famous dealer, he is wrong for what ever reason and the bass is German. This probably allowed him to charge about double for the bass about 10-12 years ago when the sale was made. Not only that, the repairs inside backfired and imploded itself. Re-graduated top that needed corrective breast patches put back in, a sprung bassbar that not only caved/sunk in the Top but ripped off his own repair under it and a senseless re-finish that should have never happened. All of this is being corrected now at my expense as I bought the bass last year. I was told it was perfect and the bass needed nothing. That same person who bought this bass and overpaid for it doesn't even know he bought it with a time-bomb ticking inside of it and when it blew up, couldn't tell a sunken top with a separated bass bar as that bass was in that condition for nearly 10 years. It was stable, no buzzing and sounded not only great, but loud very loud. So called improvements on a repairers bench is never an excuse for bad or unnecessary work. Many luthiers, and I use that word loosely, don't even know they are doing wrong sometimes.

There is no school to go to to learn these things than life with basses itself. One must be fair and believe what is true when it is, rather than glorify a hamburger into a steak. It is what it is when it is. You can't turn a Dog into a Shark with a fancy appraisal. First off, the dog will eventually drown or starve to death and the Shark, he will do more damage to your furniture than the dog did.. lol..

It's a German/Germanic Bass. .. I was playing mine all day, proudly. 'Sitting' in my rack I have a genuine Fendt d'Salo, a 4/4 Panormo School, the Candi and several others. Still, the German is the one I am using to start the orchestra season off. There is nothing worng with a good old German Bass. There are plenty of them in the professional Orchestras over in Europe from Germany to Vienna and they are well respected instruments. Enjoy yours..

[Bill Sallee]

Originally Posted by Ken Smith

It's a German/Germanic Bass. .. I was playing mine all day, proudly. 'Sitting' in my rack I have a genuine Fendt d'Salo, a 4/4 Panormo School, the Candi and several others. Still, the German is the one I am using to start the orchestra season off. There is nothing worng with a good old German Bass. There are plenty of them in the professional Orchestras over in Europe from Germany to Vienna and they are well respected instruments. Enjoy yours..

Ken, I am absolutely enjoying my bass. I wake up in the morning and have to play it for a few minutes because I just can't get over how good it sounds
I don't believe I overpaid as it was a little less than 10k and is so much more bass than the old plywood jobs I have owned. Thanks.