Where are they??

[Ken Smith]

I just read this on line so I thought it would be good to share. His name is quite famous but where he came from and what he did prior to earn his reputation is different depending on the author. This paragraph is on line at ricercare.com but is copied from the Henley book and is the most comprehensive information I have seen to date on him. Reading also from Jalovec makes the information on Neuner unanimous.

"NEUNER, LUDWIG
Most brilliant representative of the family. Born at Mittenwald, 1840. Trained in the workshop of his father Johann; worked with Andreas Engleder at Munich, also studied ’cello playing with Werner at the Conservatorium. Proceeded to Vienna where he was assistant to Gabriel Lembock; then spent six years under the guidance of J. B. Vuillaume at Paris; also continued his ’cello studies by taking lessons from Franchomme. The cleverness of his subsequent work must be entirely attributable to the impressions gathered from the masterpieces continually passing through the hands of the eminent Frenchman. Worked a few months in London; opened an establishment at Berlin, 1867; worked there with two workmen until 1883. Death of brother and father necessitated his return to Mittenwald, where he took over the control of “Neuner and Hornsteiner”. Had branch premises and workmen at Berlin and Innsbruck. Appointed maker to the Bavarian Royal Family. Recipient of various medals at Exhibitions throughout the world. Died 1897, after organising the firm in such a manner that 200 men were daily employed in coping with large orders from every country. An accomplished man, cultured conversationalist, etc. who could proudly boast of any acquaintance with Kaiser Wilhelm, Prince Leopold, and many of the celebrated virtuosi and composers of his country. Spent the last few years of life endeavouring to solve the secret of the varnish of the old Cremona masters. The firm produced all grades of stringed instruments from ten shillings upwards. “Solo Violins” and “Solo ’Cellos” were the personal work of Ludwig. Superior workmanship at the relatively small price of £15. Perfect modelling and replicating of the Messe Strad, or the Paganini Guarnerius, Amati, and Maggini. Finely wooded, richly varnished, and of splendid tone. Produced interesting copies of the Servais and Lübeck Strad ’cellos. Also made bows for artists."

The Bass I have just barely qualifies on the "Where are They?" in date as my estimate of c.1860 is the minimum age I was looking for, just hitting 150 years old now. On some instances the Bass looks over 200 years old but that's mainly because of the hard life it's had from constant use as well as the irregular Birdseye Maple wood used for the Back and Ribs. The Top is quite healthy for its age though. The Bass is very comfortable to play and is currenty the Bass I take out most since it's the closest in feel to my former Martini, just not quite the sound as this one is very 'German' sounding but 'old' German.

[Jeff Campbell]

Hello Ken,

I came across this bass and posted some pics on this thread a while ago, but I finally had a chance to take some measurements - this is a BIG bass.
The measurements are thus:

top bout - 21.5
middle bout 15.5
bottom bout 28.5
length of back 49
string length 44.5

Just for fun, I put it next to my big bass and it's interesting to see the two of them side by side.

[Ken Smith]

Which bass is which?

Ok, the reddish one is the big in and your bass is the brownish colored slightly smaller bass, right?

4/4 Bass; .................. My 3/4-7/8 Neuner, English model;
top bout - 21.5...................21.25"
middle bout - 15.5................14.75"
bottom bout - 28.5.............28"
length of back - 49...............45"
string length - 44.5...............41.75"

The two basses, yours and the 4/4 beast are typical Mittenwald style and look very similar in style. My Neuner is more of an English copy with only the construction being German but the model looking English. The upper and lower bouts are very close comparing the 4/4 to the Neuner but the size is way different with the Neuner having a normal length for today's playing or rather short for its time and the 4/4, just what it was made as. Typical 4/4 German. There are some older English basses like that as well from the few I have seen as they are copies of the Germans I think.

[Jeff Campbell]

It's funny to have you call mine the 'smaller' bass, because it's a very large instrument and from the looks of things, it was cut down and very well would have been the same size as the the big red one. What about the gears on the big one? Have you seen others like these? Someone said the red bass may be French but I see N&H or maybe Seitz - Mittenwald personified. On another note, will you be at the ISB this year?

[Ken Smith]

The red Bass is the same pattern as your bass. The neck is a dovetail sitting on top of the block. That is also 1000% German/Mittenwald style. Your bass is just about the exact same outline, corners, back and back center. Same school or shop but maybe not same period, maybe yes. NOTHING is French about either of the two basses. The Gears are 1000% German Gears as used on the Neuner & Hornsteiner Basses. The other ones like on your Bass I have seen on a Seitz bass and a few others. Sometimes not on plates. I had a set on my Big Gamba but there were not original to the Bass as mine was a 3-string bass originally. They were so heavy (iron, brass and steel I think) that I gave them away to Paul Biase.

What is it with people/dealers calling every nice German bass French? They seem to be totally clueless as to what the differences are. Maybe it's money driven motives or maybe just ignorance or blind ignorance for the money.

French Basses do not have necks set in like that and never have a black center strip in the back. Many German basses have German made individual gears. One player I worked with awhile back has a sloped shoulder bass with outer linings (German), gears like the red bass and purfling around the plates. I knew it was a Mittenwald bass and perhaps a Neuner-Hornsteiner. I asked him in a naive voice, "do you know what pedigree your bass is?".. "Yes, it's a Lupot" he said told to him by a dealer. Lupot was the top French maker ever c.1800, before Vuillaume's period. He was the French Strad and ranked with Panormo. Lupot never made a bass and that bass of his was made about 100 years after Lupot. Still, if it has a hint of French style like Gears or Purfling, sell is as a French Bass. lol

Not to rant but I saw one German bass, a Markneukirchen bass, late 19th century. It was similar to the above bass but roundback, German plate gears and purfling around the plates. Inside the bass was a very old sticker "made in Germany" curved around a small tag. The TP had the German makers name written under it BY the Dealer that fixed it and naext to the Germany sticker, the Dealers repair label, all plain as day. THAT same Dealer sold this bass as French with Papers even describing the German linings as Mirecourt and an Insurance appraisal as well. The German make of this bass could not be more clear plus the Sticker said Germany and that same dealer worte the Gearman makers name on the bass and STILL sold and appraised it as French. How Brash is that?

Anyway, I have a concert in a month, Shostakovich 5th, etc.. Trying to choose between the Mittenwald and the Hart as to which bass to use. Decisions decisions..

[Jeff Campbell]

We're playing Shosti 5 in the Rochester Phil this week - had a concert on Thursday night and one on Sat. I played my old dark bass and had a ball. I sit next to a very nice Gagliano played by Bob Zimmerman - we had a wonderful time playing this great music. And during the concert, not one person asked us who made our basses.

Have fun with Shostikovitch -

[Ken Smith]

Originally Posted by Jeff Campbell

We're playing Shosti 5 in the Rochester Phil this week - had a concert on Thursday night and one on Sat. I played my old dark bass and had a ball. I sit next to a very nice Gagliano played by Bob Zimmerman - we had a wonderful time playing this great music. And during the concert, not one person asked us who made our basses.

Have fun with Shostikovitch -

Ok, the 5th was great. I brought my Storioni cornerless to the first 2 rehearsals and then for the Friday night 'hurry thru traffic to get on stage in time' rehearsal, I brought the Mittenwald for safety reasons on stage. I was invited that night to play a duet as an encore with the Piano soloist from Aussie land doing Rhap/Blue and ran thru Horace Silver's 'The Preacher' on the break. When he first asked me if I knew the tune I told him I worked with Horace when I was only 17 in 1969 so the tune went well. On Saturday afternoon I came into the office and tested playing Jazz between the Mittenwald and the Storioni. Well, the Storioni 'won' from what I could hear by myself so I switched basses again.

At the dress rehearsal the Princ. Cellist asked "where's that other bass you had?". That's when I knew it made a difference. I had Belcanto's on both basses I think. Or, maybe has the 92 Starks on the Mittenwald. I have gone back and forth on that bass.

Yesterday with a friend at the shop (a Philly Bassist) we tested all of the top end basses including the Mittenwald in a blindfold test for Orchestra playing from inside a sound suppressed room and it beat out the Hart and Storioni for low end spread and power. Not by much but he thought it was the Storioni when guessing which bass was which. The main difference may have been the Strings as I have the Flexocor 92 Starks on the Mittenwald. I still have a couple E/C starks in my private stock. Most of the other basses had Belcantos. I think the Bel's are great but the Stark 92s are the darkest power strings I have tried for Orchestra. The extra tension makes them great for Jazz as well. This is mainly true for basses with strong Tops on them. My former Martini sounded great with those strings as well.

Hey, in that Shoti.5th we both played last season (separately), did you guys use the all down bows (mainly) in the 2nd moovement? We did, Russian style that I picked up from a YouTube of a USSR orchestra. Also, they played all 4s, no 5s or extensions so the played all of the lows up. We were about half n half up n down.